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Thread: Thoughts on ObamaCare?

  1. -11
    Dogbone34's Avatar
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    I'll let you know when I'm done reading it.

    I'm only on page 8 million.
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  2. -12
    TrojanFin's Avatar
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    Remember that Obamacare is a "tax" not a solution.

    Attachment 9498

    Yes we have people that abuse the system, but the abuse will still exist and we will be taxed more. Do you think the "undocumented" will be asked to pay a fine? No, there is a reason they are "undocumented" and they will continue to go to the ER on the taxpayer's dime even after the full implementation of Obamacare.

    There was a time when people could simply pay for a doctor's visit out of pocket, and even the poor could set up a payment plan if need be. You had a personal relationship with your physician, and it was affordable by comparison. Then came the malpractice suits, and the trial lawyers suing for every little thing. Then came the insurance companies found a way to charge doctors and protect them from malpractice suits. It resulted in increased costs, and then insurance companies then started telling people that they would need insurance to cover their medical care (created networks ie HMO's etc.). Such networks resulted in restricted access to doctors. As the healthcare industry grew, they became special interest groups that lobbied for favor when it came to peddling their drugs and medical equipment (add that to the cost).

    So now we want to add yet another level of bureaucracy (government intervention), and somehow that's supposed to simplify the process. Uh-no.

    So let's see... we went from just seeing a doctor to now dealing with paying increased costs to help support lawyers, insurance companies/medical groups, special interest groups and now the government. Somehow that seems less than fair.

    Many would say that socialized medicine works in Europe. I argue that they are taxed at ridiculously high rate, and within smaller countries those taxes may go to the programs that they are intended. In the United States, however, I would argue that this money would disappear into a bureaucratic black-hole consisting of many agencies merely duplicating their efforts in the name of oversight. Once Obamacare is institutionalized, it will continue to be a drain out on our resources (tax payer money) with the need for continually increased funding, similar to Social Security and Medicare, a century later.

    People claim they like transparency. Yet our tax code, healthcare system and our namely our government like to complicate things to the point where no one will be able to understand the intricacies of their policies (how many have read Obamacare in full?), and in the confusion we are held hostage by so called experts (accountants, healthcare/insurance specialists and law makers).

    Again simplicity is the key to a more prosperous and efficient country, not government bloat.
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  3. -13
    Dolphins9954's Avatar
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  4. -14
    TheWalrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phinatic8u View Post
    Is the government really forcing everybody to have health insurance?

    Seriously?



    Such a joke. I honestly can't wait to see all those that voted for him to have higher taxes and be forced to buy health insurance.

    Dumbasses.
    Do you not have health insurance?
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  5. -15
    FinsNCanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phinatic8u View Post
    I never once said I supported Romney.
    Ok.

    Who did you vote for?
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  6. -16
    trojanma's Avatar
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    2013 Dolphins LogoTannehill 17Dolphins Homer
    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanFin View Post
    Remember that Obamacare is a "tax" not a solution.

    Attachment 9498

    There was a time when people could simply pay for a doctor's visit out of pocket, and even the poor could set up a payment plan if need be. You had a personal relationship with your physician, and it was affordable by comparison. Then came the malpractice suits, and the trial lawyers suing for every little thing. Then came the insurance companies found a way to charge doctors and protect them from malpractice suits. It resulted in increased costs, and then insurance companies then started telling people that they would need insurance to cover their medical care (created networks ie HMO's etc.). Such networks resulted in restricted access to doctors. As the healthcare industry grew, they became special interest groups that lobbied for favor when it came to peddling their drugs and medical equipment (add that to the cost).

    I would say this is a gross oversimplification of why our healthcare costs are higher and essentially wrong.

    Tort reform:
    Though necessary Tort reform has become a prime issue for republicans therefore vastly inflating it's effect on the "system".

    The rising cost of healthcare is much more complicated and structural.
    Our system of medicine is the perfect example of capitalism-government axis unhinged.

    1. Fee for service
    Essentially doctors get compensated for running tests.
    When you run a private clinic as a business and all tests are under one roof where you get a cut of everything you order do think you are going to order more or less tests?
    Also when a patient has an expectation that they will get a test when they come to you, the doctor will be more likely to order the test to keep the patient happy.

    2. The over-reliance of high tech late stage game breaking cures and total ignorance of prevention.
    America is the premier country for medical training in the world. Our doctors and surgeons can perform near miracles with cath labs, micro surgery, other high tech gadgets and gizmos. All that **** is really freaking expensive. And much of it can be avoided if we were simply smarter about the way we delivered care. I.E. MORE PREVENTION. I can list numerous examples of this but I will say one. Dialysis(replacing a broken kidney with a machine). The top two reasons for dialysis are high blood pressure and diabetes. Both very avoidable and controllable issues in our day and age.

    3. The expansion of the medical beaurocracy.
    This is where I partially agree with you. For one doctor to start a practice these days you need to rent an office, have a computer system(tens of thousands of dollars), have a nurse, have billing expert that can pull the most money out of insurance companies, malpractice, have an after hours call center.
    Essentially it is impossible unless you are independently wealthy.


    Pharma:
    I am not anti-pharma. They are a necessary evil, but they are a business that derives most of its worldwide profits in the USA. Therefore they are absolutely a driver healthcare in our country.
    That being said for every multi-million dollar drug success there are at least 5 failures that gain nothing.
    Romney talked about streamlining the process to get drugs approved. Of course removing oversight will likely lead to more potentially unsafe drugs getting through so it is a double edged sword.
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  7. -17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanFin View Post
    Remember that Obamacare is a "tax" not a solution.

    Attachment 9498

    Yes we have people that abuse the system, but the abuse will still exist and we will be taxed more. Do you think the "undocumented" will be asked to pay a fine? No, there is a reason they are "undocumented" and they will continue to go to the ER on the taxpayer's dime even after the full implementation of Obamacare.

    There was a time when people could simply pay for a doctor's visit out of pocket, and even the poor could set up a payment plan if need be. You had a personal relationship with your physician, and it was affordable by comparison. Then came the malpractice suits, and the trial lawyers suing for every little thing. Then came the insurance companies found a way to charge doctors and protect them from malpractice suits. It resulted in increased costs, and then insurance companies then started telling people that they would need insurance to cover their medical care (created networks ie HMO's etc.). Such networks resulted in restricted access to doctors. As the healthcare industry grew, they became special interest groups that lobbied for favor when it came to peddling their drugs and medical equipment (add that to the cost).

    So now we want to add yet another level of bureaucracy (government intervention), and somehow that's supposed to simplify the process. Uh-no.

    So let's see... we went from just seeing a doctor to now dealing with paying increased costs to help support lawyers, insurance companies/medical groups, special interest groups and now the government. Somehow that seems less than fair.

    Many would say that socialized medicine works in Europe. I argue that they are taxed at ridiculously high rate, and within smaller countries those taxes may go to the programs that they are intended. In the United States, however, I would argue that this money would disappear into a bureaucratic black-hole consisting of many agencies merely duplicating their efforts in the name of oversight. Once Obamacare is institutionalized, it will continue to be a drain out on our resources (tax payer money) with the need for continually increased funding, similar to Social Security and Medicare, a century later.

    People claim they like transparency. Yet our tax code, healthcare system and our namely our government like to complicate things to the point where no one will be able to understand the intricacies of their policies (how many have read Obamacare in full?), and in the confusion we are held hostage by so called experts (accountants, healthcare/insurance specialists and law makers).

    Again simplicity is the key to a more prosperous and efficient country, not government bloat.
    You are off in a couple points: Social Security nor Medicare is a drain on us. It looks like a drain because Administrations like the Bush administration borrowed against SS and Medicare funds to finance the Iraq war. That leaves future generations to come up with way to refill the funds. The only financial problems you have with medicare and SS is when less people begin providing funds to both programs. But that is usually offset by times when more people provide funds and remaining funds are carried over. Using SS and Medicare as a piggy bank created the problems we are facing and will be facing.

    Secondly social medicine does not really exist in the well developed countries in Europe. It is the same garbage like people saying that Europe is socialist Continent. The majority of the countries are democracies with free capitalism. The difference is that they know for a long time that the private industry either can not or does not want to take on some responsibilities.

    In my opinion a government has to step in where the private sector fails.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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    "Worse. A politician."
    Source: Under The Dome
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  8. -18
    MadDog 88's Avatar
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    Thoughts on ObamaCare?

    ObamaCare doesn't go far enough. Single payer was what he wanted but settled to make everyone happy. Honestly between our taxes and what the normal health care policy costs, I'd bet the difference is not going to be that much.
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  9. -19
    phins_4_ever's Avatar
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    The difference will be huge. Once every American is covered the tax burden will be much less.

    I really don't know how many people actually know how hospital and doctor billing works but there are always two prices for health care:
    a) the non insured price
    b) the negotiated price

    To those who are insured: if you get a statement from your insurance it should list the actual price of services rendered and the price your insurance company negotiated, what they pay and what you pay.

    In example: a hospital stay for one night is listed at $1000, your insurance company negotiated a $500 price, Insurance pays $400 and you pay $100. Of course it varies between carriers.
    If they don't provide the actual price and negotiated price you should request one.

    If you are not insured - be it that you are rich and don't need insurance or if you are to poor to afford insurance - you always will be billed at the higher rate. If you don't pay eventually most of the bills end up in tax breaks and bailout money from local and federal government agencies. And if you pay you are going broke. In essence we all pay for the higher rates.

    Having all Americans in coverage would mean that all Americans would be paying negotiated rates. The reason for the penalty for those electing NOT to have insurance is nothing else but covering higher rates or at least some of it.

    The ACA is not going far enough. I would have preferred at least a public option so that private insurances actually get some competition. But I hope that maybe one day this country actually enters the real world.

    BTW, the ACA doesn't even reach the benefit level of the government sponsored insurance coverage every member of Congress receives. You know, the same people who are trying to tell you that it is all socialism yet have their entire family covered on your tax dollar (at least a good portion of it). The people trying to deny you affordable health care coverage while at the same time enjoying some of the best health care coverage on your dime.
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  10. -20
    spydertl79's Avatar
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    I work with high-end surgeons and with hospital executives at my current job... they consult with me regarding the state of the job market, reimbursements, etc and I assist them in finding a new position or in adding to a hospital's staff if necessary.

    The surgeons are frightened by this bill because they are going to be the ones who end up taking the brunt of the costs. I am already noticing a steady migration away from private practice and into a hospital-employed or hospital-owned group situation because of this.

    From my point of view, this bill is going to reduce healthcare costs by reducing the amount of emergency surgeries that need to be done and, as mentioned in the post above, come out of the pockets of the surgeons and the major healthcare systems via reduced reimbursement levels. This demand should be offset somewhat by an increased demand for primary care doctors and mid-level practitioners as more people get regular check ups and will probably not really effect specialists such as cardiologists, neurologists, etc.

    Most of the surgeons dislike Obamacare but, to be honest, most of them are completely clueless in regards to business, healthcare administration, and politics. Healthcare administrators all seem to be neutral on the bill... usually citing specific concerns such as the lack of malpractice reform but they are generally happy that we are building a framework to help corral the out-of-control costs.

    This is what I hear from the people who are most effected by this... do with this knowledge what you will.
    "As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand."
    Henry Wheeler Shaw
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