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Thread: Should he (Ireland) stay or should he go?

  1. -51
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    Ugh how is this even a debate.. Jeff Ireland should have been fired a long time ago.

    Look at it this way... Going into this off-season our biggest needs were QB, Wide Reciever, Pass Rusher, Tackle, Safety.
    Now going into the 2013 off-season, our biggest needs are Wide Reciever, Pass Rusher, Tackle, Corner and a Free Safety...

    In what way does that indicate a good general manager?

    This upcoming off-season is a huge opportunity for us to fill the lack of talent that is clearly on this team.. Ireland is directly responsible for that lack of talent.. he doesn't deserve the chance to have another go.
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    Even if we're pretending Jeff Ireland had nothing to do with the roster from 2008 to 2010...I'm not sure what we're supposed to be impressed by in terms of how Ireland has changed the roster from 2010 to 2012.

    Let's examine the opening-day roster for 2010 versus the opening-day roster for 2012, and focus on the changes. I'm giving ratings for whether I feel the changes have been a plus or a minus and how much of a plus. I'm generally just giving a +1 or -1, but in some cases I'll give a +2 or -2. In one EXTREME case (and you'll see why), I actually gave a -3. Maybe you consider that unfair. But I actually think I'm being pretty friendly toward today's roster players.

    The key is you have to remember what that player was considered at the time. It's unfair to use complete hindsight from 2011 & 2012 on a 2010 player, because we don't have the benefit of hindsight from 2013 and 2014 when we're making these evaluations of 2012 players.

    A good example of this is Chad Pennington. Back in 2010 he was considered a high quality backup for Chad Henne, and he was paid as such. That's where the rubber meets the road, there...the pay. Pennington was paid like a high quality backup, nearly double what Matt Moore is making if I recall.

    (+/-) 2010 Players Ousted ... 2012 Player Replacement:

    (+1) QB Chad Henne vs. QB Ryan Tannehill
    (--) QB Chad Pennington vs. QB Matt Moore
    (-1) QB Tyler Thigpen vs. QB Pat Devlin
    Comment: I think I'm being pretty friendly by giving a +1 for Tannehill over Henne. Fact of the matter is back in 2010 most everyone were still high on Chad Henne, thought of him as the quarterback of the future, etc. Meanwhile we still have no idea if Tannehill will be another Henne or better than Henne. Why did I end up giving the +1 to Tannehill? The tilting factor was that by the END of 2010, a lot of us had already noticed that Chad Henne was not going to be the guy. And as I said back in 2010 Chad Pennington was considered to be a high quality backup to Chad Henne, just as Matt Moore in 2012 is considered to be a high quality backup to Ryan Tannehill, and the two are paid commensurate to that evaluation. Back in 2010, Tyler Thigpen was thought to be a better quarterback than most think of Pat Devlin today.

    (-1) FB Lousaka Polite vs. FB Jorvorskie Lane
    (+1) RB Ronnie Brown vs. RB Reggie Bush
    (-1) RB Ricky Williams vs. RB Daniel Thomas
    (+1) RB Clifton Smith vs. RB Marcus Thigpen
    (+1) RB Patrick Cobbs vs. RB Lamar Miller
    Comment: I think many will disagree with the -1 on the Lane-Polite swap but back in 2010 Lou Polite was considered a VERY good fullback and was coming off a stellar 2009 season. In fact I believe he was given a nice contract because of that 2009 season. Lane was a total unknown heading into this year and though he impressed early he's clearly tailed off since. I think I'm comfortable handing the +1 to Reggie Bush even though back in 2010 Ronnie Brown was still considered a quality tailback. I think Ricky Williams to Daniel Thomas is an obvious minus. I think the plus for Thigpen is obvious. And here again I'm being very kind by giving a plus to Lamar Miller over Pat Cobbs. We have no idea at this point if Miller is even as good as Cobbs was, but I'm making a judgment call.

    (+1) TE John Nalbone vs. TE Charles Clay
    Comment: This one's pretty obvious. I'd go for the full +2 but the fact of the matter is Charles Clay is still a backup and averages only 17 yards per game receiving. I would question the objectivity of someone that wanted to give that a +2 instead of just a +1.

    (-3) WR Brandon Marshall vs. WR Legedu Naanee
    Comment: If you go from Larry Fitzgerald to Ernest Wilford, you get a -3. I mean, that's all there is to it. Just putting a -2 doesn't really describe this downgrade.

    (+2) OC Joe Berger vs. OC Mike Pouncey
    (-1) OT Vernon Carey vs. OT Jon Martin
    (-1) OL Paul McQuistan vs. OL Will Yeatman
    (--) OL Cory Procter vs. OL Josh Samuda
    (--) OL Jeremy Parnell vs. OL Rey Feinga
    Comment: I'm comfortable going ahead and giving the Pouncey upgrade an extra point to a +2 instead of a +1. He's good. Joe Berger was actually not that bad in 2010 but Pouncey is just that much better. I think it's rather obvious that Jon Martin has played worse than Vernon Carey did in 2010 at right tackle, and we should also keep in mind that back in 2010 Vernon was considered one of the best right tackles in the game. I'm REALLY tempted to give this a -2 but again I'm being kind.

    (-2) DT Kendall Langford vs. DT Kheeston Randall
    (--) DE Quentin Moses vs. DE Olivier Vernon
    (+1) DE Ikaika Alama-Francis vs. DE Derrick Shelby
    Comment: I may be higher on Kheeston Randall than most but the fact of the matter is Kendall Langford is a big money guy, was rated very well in 2010, and Kheeston Randall is a backup that doesn't play much. I think Quentin Moses back in 2010 absolutely was the equivalent of Olivier Vernon today and the numbers and PFF ratings back it up. I'm giving the plus to Derrick Shelby though, as he deserves it.

    (-1) LB Channing Crowder vs. LB Jason Trusnik
    (-1) LB Bobby Carpenter vs. LB Austin Spitler
    (-1) LB Tim Dobbins vs. LB Sammy Brown
    (--) LB Micah Johnson vs. LB Jonathan Freeny
    Comment: All the way around the Dolphins have been robbed of depth at this position from 2010 to 2012. Back in 2010 they had Dansby, Burnett, Misi, Crowder, Carpenter and Dobbins, and all of them could play. Now they just have Dansby, Burnett and Misi. The player for player changes here have been pretty negative and I'm being kind by calling the downgrade from Crowder to Trusnik at ONLY a -1 instead of a -2. But I know the anti-Crowder crew will go absolutely ape sh-t if I show Channing any respect whatsoever.

    (-1) CB Vontae Davis vs. CB Richard Marshall
    (--) CB Jason Allen vs. CB Jimmy Wilson
    (--) CB Benny Sapp vs. CB R.J. Stanford
    (--) S Tyrone Culver vs. S Troy Nolan
    Comment: Yes, going from Vontae Davis to Richard Marshall is a downgrade. It is what it is. Everyone loves to point out that Vontae is "struggling" in Indianapolis. This is classic fanview stuff, though. Fans tend to make snap impressions and then hold onto those snap impressions simply because they forego researching any further. It's human nature. Vontae was shipped to Indianapolis like a FedEx package and had to play 71 snaps one week later against one of the best receivers in football, not knowing the Colts' defense, not knowing the calls or terminology, not having any chemistry with the rest of the secondary players...and he got burned. But in the four games he's played in since (he's been hurt) he's had positive PFF Overall and Coverage ratings, has allowed 7.2 yards per attempt and 0.94 yards per coverage snap, and only 1 touchdown. Those numbers are better than Sean Smith's for 12 games, let alone Richard Marshall who very well could be cut this off season.

    (--) RB Lex Hilliard vs. TE Michael Egnew
    (-1) OL Lydon Murtha vs. TE Jeron Mastrud
    (+1) DE Robert Rose vs. WR Rishard Matthews
    (--) DE Clifton Geathers vs. WR Anthony Armstrong
    Comment: This is sort of a utility category, recognizing that the number of players at each position in 2010 were not the same as 2012. I'm being pretty kind giving a plus to Rishard Matthews over Robert Rose. Not that Rose ever showed anything but let's face it Matthews is a 7th round pick and all he's shown is a handful of decent catches in preseason, and then during the season he's been inactive until he finally got in the games and on at least two occasions had major mental lapses that cost the offense during key moments in hurry-up. But, I'm the optimistic type and I like Matthews. I think Paul McQuistant to Jeron Mastrud is a pretty clear downgrade. The others are a wash.

    Total Tally: -6
    Comment: It is what it is. You could argue that this is a little unfair because the Dolphins monetized guys like Vontae Davis and Brandon Marshall into extra 2nd and 3rd round picks to be used in 2013, but we've yet to see who they'll pick there let alone what that pick will do. You can't reward a front office for evaluations and picks it hasn't made yet. And meanwhile the loss of those guys has genuinely, negatively affected the team's performance. Forget attitudes and all that bull **** right now for a moment, how much better would the team be if Davis and Marshall were still here? Well, that's why they total -4 in this tally.
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  3. -53
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    I wonder what Ross would be thinking if he was to read this thread? He'd see that at least 85% of us feel like she should get rid of Ireland and then he'd look at the stands every sunday and see them empty and wonder why on earth did he not get rid of Ireland as the same time they got rid of Sparano. I still can't understand how the other 15% or so feel that they want yet another year of the same crap. Reminds me of another group of people that decided they wanted 4 more years of the same crap(and I'm not talking about sports). Somehow people seem to like it when things are not going good.

    Ozzy rules!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    I wonder what Ross would be thinking if he was to read this thread? He'd see that at least 85% of us feel like she should get rid of Ireland and then he'd look at the stands every sunday and see them empty and wonder why on earth did he not get rid of Ireland as the same time they got rid of Sparano. I still can't understand how the other 15% or so feel that they want yet another year of the same crap. Reminds me of another group of people that decided they wanted 4 more years of the same crap(and I'm not talking about sports). Somehow people seem to like it when things are not going good.

    Ozzy rules!!
    I think he already knows that 85% of his fans want Ireland gone. I think he believes that if the Dolphins were to just win games then the fans would come back to the stands, that they're not absent from the stands because of Jeff Ireland but rather because the team has sucked for so long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    I think he already knows that 85% of his fans want Ireland gone. I think he believes that if the Dolphins were to just win games then the fans would come back to the stands, that they're not absent from the stands because of Jeff Ireland but rather because the team has sucked for so long.
    I'd say attendance is more about the lack of wins.. I just don't think Ross realises that it was Jeff Ireland that is responsible for that. It's sad but we might have to be stuck with him for another year, and it's the most important off-season in a while.. If I see players like Jake Long and Sean Smith getting massive contracts, I'm not going to be happy and I can totally see it happening.
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  6. -56
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    Thanks for the breakdown...overall I'm not sure that this kind of simple tallying really tells you much. If you are attempting to capture snapshots of the total value of a roster, a couple of improvements come to mind: as a rule starters matter way more than backups for one. Perhaps the plus/minus values should be estimated more like the baseball stat of Wins Above Replacement. For two, I think you *can* assign value to the extra 2nd and 3rd round picks. An asset is an asset, picks are like cash and players are like human capital, you need to factor both in to see the bottom line. The actual cashing in of the picks and development of those players can be evaluated separately ( in the future ) as they are in fact separate decisions...also, do you think players like Hartline who have been on both rosters could be considered pluses, just by virtue of hanging on to them? They certainly have improved as value to the team---seems like the model above conflates future development and current ability. The other niciety is some measurement of cap flexibiility. I know you were trying to do something simple but to get to the point that the 'total tally' even matters and I'd be convinced about Ireland's performance one way or the other, I'd need to see a few of those things in the model...

    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    Even if we're pretending Jeff Ireland had nothing to do with the roster from 2008 to 2010...I'm not sure what we're supposed to be impressed by in terms of how Ireland has changed the roster from 2010 to 2012.

    Let's examine the opening-day roster for 2010 versus the opening-day roster for 2012, and focus on the changes. I'm giving ratings for whether I feel the changes have been a plus or a minus and how much of a plus. I'm generally just giving a +1 or -1, but in some cases I'll give a +2 or -2. In one EXTREME case (and you'll see why), I actually gave a -3. Maybe you consider that unfair. But I actually think I'm being pretty friendly toward today's roster players.

    The key is you have to remember what that player was considered at the time. It's unfair to use complete hindsight from 2011 & 2012 on a 2010 player, because we don't have the benefit of hindsight from 2013 and 2014 when we're making these evaluations of 2012 players.

    A good example of this is Chad Pennington. Back in 2010 he was considered a high quality backup for Chad Henne, and he was paid as such. That's where the rubber meets the road, there...the pay. Pennington was paid like a high quality backup, nearly double what Matt Moore is making if I recall.

    (+/-) 2010 Players Ousted ... 2012 Player Replacement:

    (+1) QB Chad Henne vs. QB Ryan Tannehill
    (--) QB Chad Pennington vs. QB Matt Moore
    (-1) QB Tyler Thigpen vs. QB Pat Devlin
    Comment: I think I'm being pretty friendly by giving a +1 for Tannehill over Henne. Fact of the matter is back in 2010 most everyone were still high on Chad Henne, thought of him as the quarterback of the future, etc. Meanwhile we still have no idea if Tannehill will be another Henne or better than Henne. Why did I end up giving the +1 to Tannehill? The tilting factor was that by the END of 2010, a lot of us had already noticed that Chad Henne was not going to be the guy. And as I said back in 2010 Chad Pennington was considered to be a high quality backup to Chad Henne, just as Matt Moore in 2012 is considered to be a high quality backup to Ryan Tannehill, and the two are paid commensurate to that evaluation. Back in 2010, Tyler Thigpen was thought to be a better quarterback than most think of Pat Devlin today.

    (-1) FB Lousaka Polite vs. FB Jorvorskie Lane
    (+1) RB Ronnie Brown vs. RB Reggie Bush
    (-1) RB Ricky Williams vs. RB Daniel Thomas
    (+1) RB Clifton Smith vs. RB Marcus Thigpen
    (+1) RB Patrick Cobbs vs. RB Lamar Miller
    Comment: I think many will disagree with the -1 on the Lane-Polite swap but back in 2010 Lou Polite was considered a VERY good fullback and was coming off a stellar 2009 season. In fact I believe he was given a nice contract because of that 2009 season. Lane was a total unknown heading into this year and though he impressed early he's clearly tailed off since. I think I'm comfortable handing the +1 to Reggie Bush even though back in 2010 Ronnie Brown was still considered a quality tailback. I think Ricky Williams to Daniel Thomas is an obvious minus. I think the plus for Thigpen is obvious. And here again I'm being very kind by giving a plus to Lamar Miller over Pat Cobbs. We have no idea at this point if Miller is even as good as Cobbs was, but I'm making a judgment call.

    (+1) TE John Nalbone vs. TE Charles Clay
    Comment: This one's pretty obvious. I'd go for the full +2 but the fact of the matter is Charles Clay is still a backup and averages only 17 yards per game receiving. I would question the objectivity of someone that wanted to give that a +2 instead of just a +1.

    (-3) WR Brandon Marshall vs. WR Legedu Naanee
    Comment: If you go from Larry Fitzgerald to Ernest Wilford, you get a -3. I mean, that's all there is to it. Just putting a -2 doesn't really describe this downgrade.

    (+2) OC Joe Berger vs. OC Mike Pouncey
    (-1) OT Vernon Carey vs. OT Jon Martin
    (-1) OL Paul McQuistan vs. OL Will Yeatman
    (--) OL Cory Procter vs. OL Josh Samuda
    (--) OL Jeremy Parnell vs. OL Rey Feinga
    Comment: I'm comfortable going ahead and giving the Pouncey upgrade an extra point to a +2 instead of a +1. He's good. Joe Berger was actually not that bad in 2010 but Pouncey is just that much better. I think it's rather obvious that Jon Martin has played worse than Vernon Carey did in 2010 at right tackle, and we should also keep in mind that back in 2010 Vernon was considered one of the best right tackles in the game. I'm REALLY tempted to give this a -2 but again I'm being kind.

    (-2) DT Kendall Langford vs. DT Kheeston Randall
    (--) DE Quentin Moses vs. DE Olivier Vernon
    (+1) DE Ikaika Alama-Francis vs. DE Derrick Shelby
    Comment: I may be higher on Kheeston Randall than most but the fact of the matter is Kendall Langford is a big money guy, was rated very well in 2010, and Kheeston Randall is a backup that doesn't play much. I think Quentin Moses back in 2010 absolutely was the equivalent of Olivier Vernon today and the numbers and PFF ratings back it up. I'm giving the plus to Derrick Shelby though, as he deserves it.

    (-1) LB Channing Crowder vs. LB Jason Trusnik
    (-1) LB Bobby Carpenter vs. LB Austin Spitler
    (-1) LB Tim Dobbins vs. LB Sammy Brown
    (--) LB Micah Johnson vs. LB Jonathan Freeny
    Comment: All the way around the Dolphins have been robbed of depth at this position from 2010 to 2012. Back in 2010 they had Dansby, Burnett, Misi, Crowder, Carpenter and Dobbins, and all of them could play. Now they just have Dansby, Burnett and Misi. The player for player changes here have been pretty negative and I'm being kind by calling the downgrade from Crowder to Trusnik at ONLY a -1 instead of a -2. But I know the anti-Crowder crew will go absolutely ape sh-t if I show Channing any respect whatsoever.

    (-1) CB Vontae Davis vs. CB Richard Marshall
    (--) CB Jason Allen vs. CB Jimmy Wilson
    (--) CB Benny Sapp vs. CB R.J. Stanford
    (--) S Tyrone Culver vs. S Troy Nolan
    Comment: Yes, going from Vontae Davis to Richard Marshall is a downgrade. It is what it is. Everyone loves to point out that Vontae is "struggling" in Indianapolis. This is classic fanview stuff, though. Fans tend to make snap impressions and then hold onto those snap impressions simply because they forego researching any further. It's human nature. Vontae was shipped to Indianapolis like a FedEx package and had to play 71 snaps one week later against one of the best receivers in football, not knowing the Colts' defense, not knowing the calls or terminology, not having any chemistry with the rest of the secondary players...and he got burned. But in the four games he's played in since (he's been hurt) he's had positive PFF Overall and Coverage ratings, has allowed 7.2 yards per attempt and 0.94 yards per coverage snap, and only 1 touchdown. Those numbers are better than Sean Smith's for 12 games, let alone Richard Marshall who very well could be cut this off season.

    (--) RB Lex Hilliard vs. TE Michael Egnew
    (-1) OL Lydon Murtha vs. TE Jeron Mastrud
    (+1) DE Robert Rose vs. WR Rishard Matthews
    (--) DE Clifton Geathers vs. WR Anthony Armstrong
    Comment: This is sort of a utility category, recognizing that the number of players at each position in 2010 were not the same as 2012. I'm being pretty kind giving a plus to Rishard Matthews over Robert Rose. Not that Rose ever showed anything but let's face it Matthews is a 7th round pick and all he's shown is a handful of decent catches in preseason, and then during the season he's been inactive until he finally got in the games and on at least two occasions had major mental lapses that cost the offense during key moments in hurry-up. But, I'm the optimistic type and I like Matthews. I think Paul McQuistant to Jeron Mastrud is a pretty clear downgrade. The others are a wash.

    Total Tally: -6
    Comment: It is what it is. You could argue that this is a little unfair because the Dolphins monetized guys like Vontae Davis and Brandon Marshall into extra 2nd and 3rd round picks to be used in 2013, but we've yet to see who they'll pick there let alone what that pick will do. You can't reward a front office for evaluations and picks it hasn't made yet. And meanwhile the loss of those guys has genuinely, negatively affected the team's performance. Forget attitudes and all that bull **** right now for a moment, how much better would the team be if Davis and Marshall were still here? Well, that's why they total -4 in this tally.
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  7. -57
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    Quote Originally Posted by isaacjunk View Post
    Thanks for the breakdown...overall I'm not sure that this kind of simple tallying really tells you much. If you are attempting to capture snapshots of the total value of a roster, a couple of improvements come to mind: as a rule starters matter way more than backups for one. Perhaps the plus/minus values should be estimated more like the baseball stat of Wins Above Replacement. For two, I think you *can* assign value to the extra 2nd and 3rd round picks. An asset is an asset, picks are like cash and players are like human capital, you need to factor both in to see the bottom line. The actual cashing in of the picks and development of those players can be evaluated separately ( in the future ) as they are in fact separate decisions...also, do you think players like Hartline who have been on both rosters could be considered pluses, just by virtue of hanging on to them? They certainly have improved as value to the team---seems like the model above conflates future development and current ability. The other niciety is some measurement of cap flexibiility. I know you were trying to do something simple but to get to the point that the 'total tally' even matters and I'd be convinced about Ireland's performance one way or the other, I'd need to see a few of those things in the model...
    1. The point was that the roster from Week 1 of 2010 to Week 1 of 2012 has changed by 30 players. This is just a manner of looking at the basket of 30 new players and deciding whether the General Manager made marginal positive changes or marginal negative changes.

    2. The point you raise about looking at a guy that was on both rosters is not relevant. The reason is because this argument pertains only to the thesis that Jeff Ireland should be held above blame for bad roster decisions made from 2008 to 2010, because that was the "Parcells Era". How do you credit Jeff Ireland for a Brian Hartline when Brian Hartline was drafted during the Parcells Era, then turn around and absolve Ireland of blame for all the other negative maneuvers? It's a fallacy. That is why I limited the scope of the study purely to how he CHANGED the roster.

    3. The "starter versus backup" limitation is acknowledged and is a function just trying to do something simple and not so convoluted as to become useless. But it's also somewhat controlled via the ratings themselves. Notice for example that I specifically say that I only gave the John Nalbone => Charles Clay upgrade a +1 simply on the basis of Clay being a part time player that's only caught for 17 yards per game this year. Nalbone was awful and Clay is actually kind of promising, there's a pretty big difference there in the talent...but Clay isn't a "starter" so it's a +1. The other thing is, I have 8 pluses and 11 minuses. Of the 8 pluses, only 3 of them are "starters" or starter equivalents. Of the 11 minuses, 7 of them were starter equivalents. So in actuality if I did control and/or weight the ratings in the manner you desire, it would come out even more negative.

    4. You COULD value the late-2nd and late-3rd round picks, but it becomes controversial as to how you value them. And to be honest, I think people will over-value them. You look at acquisitions like Michael Egnew and Olivier Vernon in the 3rd round, neither of them have added anything over the equivalent players they replaced from 2010. Will they in the future? Maybe. But 2nd round pick Daniel Thomas has actually detracted a point relative to Ricky Williams, and 4th round Clyde Gates is no longer on the roster. John Jerry (3rd) is playing but not necessarily playing well. Pat White (2nd), Patrick Turner (3rd) and A.J. Edds (4th) are also all off the roster. Phil Merling was pretty much a 1st round equivalent (#32 overall) and he's off the roster. Chad Henne (2nd) is off the roster. Shawn Murphy (4th) is off the roster. Even considering that Koa Misi (2nd), Sean Smith (2nd), Kendall Langford (3rd), Brian Hartline (4th) have achieved some form of success, it all paints a picture of those late-2nd and late-3rd (currently #58 and #89) picks not being worth much, if anything at all, in the study.

    5. As for salary cap flexibility I suppose you might be tempted to value the $40 million in cap space slated for 2013. I am not. The reason is because that $40 million is primarily opened up by the expiration of contracts for players that are on the 2012 roster.

    6. A natural weakness of the study is the inability to predict the future which may result in a bias against particularly young replacements. For example, how do we know Ryan Tannehill isn't a +2 or even a +3 over Chad Henne instead of just a +1? How do we know Lamar Miller isn't a +2 over Pat Cobbs instead of a +1? Jon Martin could end up in a draw with Vernon Carey. Olivier Vernon could end up a +1 over Quentin Moses. Michael Egnew could end up a +1 over Lex Hilliard. Randall could realistically end up only a -1 versus Langford instead of a -2. But as I look across the study, I already gave these guys points based MOSTLY on potential. I already took the optimist road. Martin should very well be a -2 over Carey, Tannehill has performed marginally better if at all as opposed to Chad Henne in 2009 & 2010 (blasphemy I know), Lamar Miller hasn't even proven as much as Pat Cobbs had when he was in Miami, and Rishard Matthews hasn't done a damn thing. By all rights I should have shorted these youngsters 4 more points but I just flat out gave away those 4 points out of pure optimism and benefit of the doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    Even if we're pretending Jeff Ireland had nothing to do with the roster from 2008 to 2010...I'm not sure what we're supposed to be impressed by in terms of how Ireland has changed the roster from 2010 to 2012.

    Let's examine the opening-day roster for 2010 versus the opening-day roster for 2012, and focus on the changes. I'm giving ratings for whether I feel the changes have been a plus or a minus and how much of a plus. I'm generally just giving a +1 or -1, but in some cases I'll give a +2 or -2. In one EXTREME case (and you'll see why), I actually gave a -3. Maybe you consider that unfair. But I actually think I'm being pretty friendly toward today's roster players.

    The key is you have to remember what that player was considered at the time. It's unfair to use complete hindsight from 2011 & 2012 on a 2010 player, because we don't have the benefit of hindsight from 2013 and 2014 when we're making these evaluations of 2012 players.

    A good example of this is Chad Pennington. Back in 2010 he was considered a high quality backup for Chad Henne, and he was paid as such. That's where the rubber meets the road, there...the pay. Pennington was paid like a high quality backup, nearly double what Matt Moore is making if I recall.

    (+/-) 2010 Players Ousted ... 2012 Player Replacement:

    (+1) QB Chad Henne vs. QB Ryan Tannehill
    (--) QB Chad Pennington vs. QB Matt Moore
    (-1) QB Tyler Thigpen vs. QB Pat Devlin
    Comment: I think I'm being pretty friendly by giving a +1 for Tannehill over Henne. Fact of the matter is back in 2010 most everyone were still high on Chad Henne, thought of him as the quarterback of the future, etc. Meanwhile we still have no idea if Tannehill will be another Henne or better than Henne. Why did I end up giving the +1 to Tannehill? The tilting factor was that by the END of 2010, a lot of us had already noticed that Chad Henne was not going to be the guy. And as I said back in 2010 Chad Pennington was considered to be a high quality backup to Chad Henne, just as Matt Moore in 2012 is considered to be a high quality backup to Ryan Tannehill, and the two are paid commensurate to that evaluation. Back in 2010, Tyler Thigpen was thought to be a better quarterback than most think of Pat Devlin today.

    (-1) FB Lousaka Polite vs. FB Jorvorskie Lane
    (+1) RB Ronnie Brown vs. RB Reggie Bush
    (-1) RB Ricky Williams vs. RB Daniel Thomas
    (+1) RB Clifton Smith vs. RB Marcus Thigpen
    (+1) RB Patrick Cobbs vs. RB Lamar Miller
    Comment: I think many will disagree with the -1 on the Lane-Polite swap but back in 2010 Lou Polite was considered a VERY good fullback and was coming off a stellar 2009 season. In fact I believe he was given a nice contract because of that 2009 season. Lane was a total unknown heading into this year and though he impressed early he's clearly tailed off since. I think I'm comfortable handing the +1 to Reggie Bush even though back in 2010 Ronnie Brown was still considered a quality tailback. I think Ricky Williams to Daniel Thomas is an obvious minus. I think the plus for Thigpen is obvious. And here again I'm being very kind by giving a plus to Lamar Miller over Pat Cobbs. We have no idea at this point if Miller is even as good as Cobbs was, but I'm making a judgment call.

    (+1) TE John Nalbone vs. TE Charles Clay
    Comment: This one's pretty obvious. I'd go for the full +2 but the fact of the matter is Charles Clay is still a backup and averages only 17 yards per game receiving. I would question the objectivity of someone that wanted to give that a +2 instead of just a +1.

    (-3) WR Brandon Marshall vs. WR Legedu Naanee
    Comment: If you go from Larry Fitzgerald to Ernest Wilford, you get a -3. I mean, that's all there is to it. Just putting a -2 doesn't really describe this downgrade.

    (+2) OC Joe Berger vs. OC Mike Pouncey
    (-1) OT Vernon Carey vs. OT Jon Martin
    (-1) OL Paul McQuistan vs. OL Will Yeatman
    (--) OL Cory Procter vs. OL Josh Samuda
    (--) OL Jeremy Parnell vs. OL Rey Feinga
    Comment: I'm comfortable going ahead and giving the Pouncey upgrade an extra point to a +2 instead of a +1. He's good. Joe Berger was actually not that bad in 2010 but Pouncey is just that much better. I think it's rather obvious that Jon Martin has played worse than Vernon Carey did in 2010 at right tackle, and we should also keep in mind that back in 2010 Vernon was considered one of the best right tackles in the game. I'm REALLY tempted to give this a -2 but again I'm being kind.

    (-2) DT Kendall Langford vs. DT Kheeston Randall
    (--) DE Quentin Moses vs. DE Olivier Vernon
    (+1) DE Ikaika Alama-Francis vs. DE Derrick Shelby
    Comment: I may be higher on Kheeston Randall than most but the fact of the matter is Kendall Langford is a big money guy, was rated very well in 2010, and Kheeston Randall is a backup that doesn't play much. I think Quentin Moses back in 2010 absolutely was the equivalent of Olivier Vernon today and the numbers and PFF ratings back it up. I'm giving the plus to Derrick Shelby though, as he deserves it.

    (-1) LB Channing Crowder vs. LB Jason Trusnik
    (-1) LB Bobby Carpenter vs. LB Austin Spitler
    (-1) LB Tim Dobbins vs. LB Sammy Brown
    (--) LB Micah Johnson vs. LB Jonathan Freeny
    Comment: All the way around the Dolphins have been robbed of depth at this position from 2010 to 2012. Back in 2010 they had Dansby, Burnett, Misi, Crowder, Carpenter and Dobbins, and all of them could play. Now they just have Dansby, Burnett and Misi. The player for player changes here have been pretty negative and I'm being kind by calling the downgrade from Crowder to Trusnik at ONLY a -1 instead of a -2. But I know the anti-Crowder crew will go absolutely ape sh-t if I show Channing any respect whatsoever.

    (-1) CB Vontae Davis vs. CB Richard Marshall
    (--) CB Jason Allen vs. CB Jimmy Wilson
    (--) CB Benny Sapp vs. CB R.J. Stanford
    (--) S Tyrone Culver vs. S Troy Nolan
    Comment: Yes, going from Vontae Davis to Richard Marshall is a downgrade. It is what it is. Everyone loves to point out that Vontae is "struggling" in Indianapolis. This is classic fanview stuff, though. Fans tend to make snap impressions and then hold onto those snap impressions simply because they forego researching any further. It's human nature. Vontae was shipped to Indianapolis like a FedEx package and had to play 71 snaps one week later against one of the best receivers in football, not knowing the Colts' defense, not knowing the calls or terminology, not having any chemistry with the rest of the secondary players...and he got burned. But in the four games he's played in since (he's been hurt) he's had positive PFF Overall and Coverage ratings, has allowed 7.2 yards per attempt and 0.94 yards per coverage snap, and only 1 touchdown. Those numbers are better than Sean Smith's for 12 games, let alone Richard Marshall who very well could be cut this off season.

    (--) RB Lex Hilliard vs. TE Michael Egnew
    (-1) OL Lydon Murtha vs. TE Jeron Mastrud
    (+1) DE Robert Rose vs. WR Rishard Matthews
    (--) DE Clifton Geathers vs. WR Anthony Armstrong
    Comment: This is sort of a utility category, recognizing that the number of players at each position in 2010 were not the same as 2012. I'm being pretty kind giving a plus to Rishard Matthews over Robert Rose. Not that Rose ever showed anything but let's face it Matthews is a 7th round pick and all he's shown is a handful of decent catches in preseason, and then during the season he's been inactive until he finally got in the games and on at least two occasions had major mental lapses that cost the offense during key moments in hurry-up. But, I'm the optimistic type and I like Matthews. I think Paul McQuistant to Jeron Mastrud is a pretty clear downgrade. The others are a wash.

    Total Tally: -6
    Comment: It is what it is. You could argue that this is a little unfair because the Dolphins monetized guys like Vontae Davis and Brandon Marshall into extra 2nd and 3rd round picks to be used in 2013, but we've yet to see who they'll pick there let alone what that pick will do. You can't reward a front office for evaluations and picks it hasn't made yet. And meanwhile the loss of those guys has genuinely, negatively affected the team's performance. Forget attitudes and all that bull **** right now for a moment, how much better would the team be if Davis and Marshall were still here? Well, that's why they total -4 in this tally.
    Wow. CK with the damn knockout blow.

    Valandui's Weekly Music Video

    Black Crown Initiate: Withering Waves
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  9. -59
    Dick Pepperwood's Avatar
    Pro Bowler

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    Ireland. Gone.

    The Point of the GM is to Draft Talent. Create a Roster to Win Games. We have maybe one Pro Bowler on our Team in 2012. Brandon Fields. Punter, Who Cares? Everyone talks about Playmakers. We have barely one on each side of the Ball. Bush on O. Wake on D. Not Enough. The Next GM needs to get Stud Players on this Team. Te'o would be a Good Start for 2013
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  10. -60
    larouco's Avatar
    Rookie

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    he has proved that he is best since J.J
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