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Thread: NRA ad brings Obama kids into gun debate; White House fights back

  1. -61
    rob19's Avatar
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  2. -62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    What difference does it make what percentage of poor people engage in criminal activity? Seriously, it's like talking to a middle schooler too. ****ing ridiculous. You tell me how this is relevant in any sense of the word, and I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you. I'm not going to be dragged off onto some little tangent just because you know jack **** about the topic, though...
    Your condescending tone doesn't really bother me because I know it's just a defense mechanism you use. If you knew anything about the topic there's nothing anyone could do to prevent you from enlightening us. You can't expand so you just regurgitate liberal ideology and then demean anyone who thinks differently. You've been indoctrinated to think that people with liberal ideas are smart, and people with conservative ideas aren't. This is probably why you make such a big deal about Statler's education as it goes against everything you've been led to believe. Thinking outside your liberal ideology would put you at risk of suffering the same labels you routinely foist on those who think differently than you. To avoid anyone questioning your intelligence you accept liberal ideology without a second thought.


    Poverty is currently up, but crime is down. Crime did not spike during the Great Recession either.

    The reason is that crime and poverty come from an entitlement mindset in which people believe they have been giving a raw deal and are owed something.

    Actions and choices cause poverty. For example, if man with dependents commits a crime and gets incarcerated then those dependents are much more likely to live in poverty. Criminal activity makes it very difficult for someone to settle into long term employment and long term housing. Such a lifestyle makes it difficult to save money and build a better life. The easy come easy go attitude of getting something for nothing is not conducive to long term financial planning or saving money.

    98% of people who graduate from high school, work, and get married before having children live above the poverty level.

    Ron Haskins, co-author of the Brookings study, which looked at Census Bureau data on a sample of Americans, wrote that the analysis found that young adults who finished high school, worked full time and got married after age 21 and before having kids “had a 2 percent chance of winding up in poverty and a 74 percent chance of winding up in the middle class (defined as earning roughly $50,000 or more). By contrast, young adults who violated all three norms had a 76 percent chance of winding up in poverty and a 7 percent chance of winding up in the middle class.”
    http://www.factcheck.org/2012/01/san...g-on-marriage/

    More information on the connection between crime and poverty.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...055735590.html
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  3. -63
    Locke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoFins! View Post
    Your condescending tone doesn't really bother me because I know it's just a defense mechanism you use. If you knew anything about the topic there's nothing anyone could do to prevent you from enlightening us. You can't expand so you just regurgitate liberal ideology and then demean anyone who thinks differently. You've been indoctrinated to think that people with liberal ideas are smart, and people with conservative ideas aren't. This is probably why you make such a big deal about Statler's education as it goes against everything you've been led to believe. Thinking outside your liberal ideology would put you at risk of suffering the same labels you routinely foist on those who think differently than you. To avoid anyone questioning your intelligence you accept liberal ideology without a second thought.


    Poverty is currently up, but crime is down. Crime did not spike during the Great Recession either.

    The reason is that crime and poverty come from an entitlement mindset in which people believe they have been giving a raw deal and are owed something.

    Actions and choices cause poverty. For example, if man with dependents commits a crime and gets incarcerated then those dependents are much more likely to live in poverty. Criminal activity makes it very difficult for someone to settle into long term employment and long term housing. Such a lifestyle makes it difficult to save money and build a better life. The easy come easy go attitude of getting something for nothing is not conducive to long term financial planning or saving money.

    98% of people who graduate from high school, work, and get married before having children live above the poverty level.


    http://www.factcheck.org/2012/01/san...g-on-marriage/

    More information on the connection between crime and poverty.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...055735590.html


    You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm done. You can't reason with someone who claims someone is indoctrinated because they are liberal. Turn off Fox News. Seriously. Your brain will thank you, as will your kids...

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  4. -64
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post

    You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm done. You can't reason with someone who claims someone is indoctrinated because they are liberal. Turn off Fox News. Seriously. Your brain will thank you, as will your kids...
    Well this is a bit disappointing, I was hoping you’d come back and actually give a response to GoFins excellent post, instead you insist on claiming he doesn’t know what he is talking about, a claim you have yet to back up with anything (except by making appeals to “thousands of studies” you seem to be incapable of linking to). GoFins question about what percentage of low income people commit crimes is absolutely relevant because if your assertions are true that poverty causes crime we should see a statistically notable difference in the percentage of low income people who commit crimes compared to those in the middle and upper class.

    Excellent post GoFins by the way!
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  5. -65
    Locke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post


    Well this is a bit disappointing, I was hoping you’d come back and actually give a response to GoFins excellent post, instead you insist on claiming he doesn’t know what he is talking about, a claim you have yet to back up with anything (except by making appeals to “thousands of studies” you seem to be incapable of linking to). GoFins question about what percentage of low income people commit crimes is absolutely relevant because if your assertions are true that poverty causes crime we should see a statistically notable difference in the percentage of low income people who commit crimes compared to those in the middle and upper class.

    Excellent post GoFins by the way!


    As someone with two "degrees", surely you know that you can't post a link to a copyrighted study, same way I can't link you to an online copy of a book? This is why you have to subscribe to scientific journals, or access them through a university's archive, which they pay for. Basic stuff Statler. As is this topic. I'm not arguing basics with you guys. This is the equivalent of someone trying to argue that 2+2 does not equal 4. If someone else wants to actually delve into the topic in an intelligent manner, I love a good conversation. But it's a waste of time trying to talk to people who are so uninformed on a topic that they can't even acknowledge the extreme basics...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post

    As someone with two "degrees", surely you know that you can't post a link to a copyrighted study, same way I can't link you to an online copy of a book? This is why you have to subscribe to scientific journals, or access them through a university's archive, which they pay for. Basic stuff Statler. As is this topic. I'm not arguing basics with you guys. This is the equivalent of someone trying to argue that 2+2 does not equal 4. If someone else wants to actually delve into the topic in an intelligent manner, I love a good conversation. But it's a waste of time trying to talk to people who are so uninformed on a topic that they can't even acknowledge the extreme basics...


    I have seen you make this assertion before, and it’s actually totally incorrect, many peer-reviewed studies are available on the Journal’s websites for free and you can easily link to them by right clicking on the URL, clicking “copy”, and then clicking “Paste” in your response. If the entire study is not available most journals will still offer an Abstract or Introduction to the work that can also be linked to. Even if you don’t want to take the time to do that, a simple reference to the author, name of the article, and the journal it appeared in would do just fine for me…I am eagerly awaiting your citation so we all know these studies really do exist!

    …just to demonstrate that you are incorrect in your above assertion, I will now link to a peer-reviewed study that appeared in Nature, which is one of the two largest peer-reviewed journals in the world, the study is copyrighted but Nature has no issues with me linking to it, I am really glad we got that misconception cleared up….see below…

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture11837.html
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  7. -67
    Locke's Avatar
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    While doing a google search to try to find something non-journalistic for this, I came across several links talking about how conservatives are challenging the results of poverty and crime being related. Apparently it's being challenged because it would be the best case against the widening wealth gap we're seeing in the U.S. And of course, I found a couple links to Fox News articles, and some youtube videos from O'Reilly and Anne Coulter. Absolutely fantastic. I had no idea there was an actual crusade against this research. Which explains why our resident Neo-cons are actually arguing basic stuff. Fantastic.

    Closest thing to an actual study I can legally access on the internet:

    http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

    Of course I found hundreds of articles discussing it, but I'm not linking to anything that can have a slant. Pure scientific studies are all I'm interested in. Any douchebag can put whatever they want on the internet or in the news, so anything that isn't a study has very little validity...
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  8. -68
    Locke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post

    I have seen you make this assertion before, and it’s actually totally incorrect, many peer-reviewed studies are available on the Journal’s websites for free and you can easily link to them by right clicking on the URL, clicking “copy”, and then clicking “Paste” in your response. If the entire study is not available most journals will still offer an Abstract or Introduction to the work that can also be linked to. Even if you don’t want to take the time to do that, a simple reference to the author, name of the article, and the journal it appeared in would do just fine for me…I am eagerly awaiting your citation so we all know these studies really do exist!

    …just to demonstrate that you are incorrect in your above assertion, I will now link to a peer-reviewed study that appeared in Nature, which is one of the two largest peer-reviewed journals in the world, the study is copyrighted but Nature has no issues with me linking to it, I am really glad we got that misconception cleared up….see below…

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture11837.html
    You're linking to a citation and a brief synposis of the study. If you look halfway down the page, in the enormous box that says "Subscribe to Nature for Full Access" in big huge letters, you'll notice it is says you can subscribe to Nature for $199, or you can pay $32 to access the PDF of this one single study. You just owned yourself Statler...
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  9. -69
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    You're linking to a citation and a brief synposis of the study. If you look halfway down the page, in the enormous box that says "Subscribe to Nature for Full Access" in big huge letters, you'll notice it is says you can subscribe to Nature for $199, or you can pay $32 to access the PDF of this one single study. You just owned yourself Statler...


    No, not at all, the article still lists the authors, assumptions, details the methodology, findings, conclusions, and lists the references; which is all I would have needed from you. You just demonstrated that your original assertion about scientific research only being available to some top secret group of people teaching or studying at university is completetly bogus (I hope that wasn't something your university tried to tell you), anyone who wants to pay $16.50/month can have unfettered access to probably the most prestigious scientific journal in the world. You were blowing smoke, nothing more.

    As for your referenced article, I appreciate the fact you provided something, unfortunately I don’t think it really makes your case. The article is trying to refute the contention that crime rates are related to race, which is something nobody that I am aware of on here is even trying to contend. The author of the study does say there is a connection between poverty and crime, which is not what you claimed. You claimed that poverty causes crime, but as I have already pointed out, connection does not prove causation, that’s committing the fallacy known as Cum Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc . GoFins made a good argument for crime leading to poverty which is a claim that would be supported just as well by the findings of the study you provided.
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  10. -70
    Locke's Avatar
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    No, it doesn't list any of that. You're lying yet again. You realize anyone reading this thread can simply click on that link and see for themselves? Yet knowing that, you go ahead and lie anyways. If it listed all that information, they'd have nothing to sell. It lists a brief synopsis so researchers know what it is they are purchasing. Nothing more. But please, prove me wrong. Why don't you cut and paste the methodology, findings, and conclusion into this thread for us all to see? Should be simple enough considering you claim it's a simple click away.

    Drop the Fox News talking points. Anyone trying to say crime causes poverty is saying it out of pure partisan rhetoric. There is literally nothing that supports that notion. Nothing. You partisans are seriously eroding what used to be the greatest country in the world...
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