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View Poll Results: Would make you the happiest???

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40. You may not vote on this poll
  • #12 pick = Patterson, 2a & 2b = BPA (3 picks)

    31 77.50%
  • #12 pick = BPA, 2a + 2b traded to move up and use for Patterson (2 picks)

    5 12.50%
  • #12 pick = Allen 2a & 2b used on BPA (3 picks)

    4 10.00%
  • #12 pick = BPA 2a and 2b traded to get Allen (2 picks)

    0 0%
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Thread: My Perspective, Patterson vs Allen

  1. -1
    AcidBath

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    Another POV My Perspective, Patterson vs Allen

    I still am excited for the combine to come around and see how motivated these 2 are in pushing themselves for that extra inch on the jumps vert or long or that .01 second shed off their 40 time, or those extra couple of bench reps.

    I watched as many highlights as i could off of the internet and was going off what I remember from the handful of games i saw either in this year but at this point in time I would HANDS DOWN be happier with having patterson as a Dolphin next year. When I was watching the highlights you don't expect to see negative plays but I also didnt see as many "Wow" plays by Allen. I saw a few great catches/runs and saw alot of average plays that were for decent gains, so don't get me wrong I think allen would definitly help out and be an upgrade for our WR corp. and we could definitly use alot of the plays I saw him make but I viewed him more as just a solid WR but not a Superstar. Now when I watched Patterson's highlights, I did keep in mind the same thing as Allen these were just his highlight plays and I don't know if he "dissapears" in games or runs bad routes or has drop problems, but what I did see in the video's was a reciever that was determined! This was the difference between the two that would make me want him hands down over Allen was he seemed "hungry". In doing so I did not see many average catches/runs like Allen but instead saw alot more catches/runs that if they would have been in a Dolphins game I would have been jumping off the couch or yelling some jumble of words that could not be understood because I would be so excited. The last big difference that I saw that really made me like Patterson more was his vision. In similar plays and in almost every highlight I watched where either player had a few yards to work with Patterson's vision was GREAT. He was making moves 1/2 second - 1/2 yard earlier than allen was making them in similar plays.

    I became even more excited when thinking about the combine and if my feelings are correct Patterson is going to improve, and show great worth ethic between now and the combine and put up numbers exceeding what people are projecting for him. I feel Allen will be right at what people think he will do which will still be good numbers just not as good as Patterson. I know some will disagree and these are just my own personal views and ideas and hopes of these 2 players. Honestly though i pictured patterson gaining 20 pounds or so of muscle and as long as it didnt affect his speed with what he was already doing to Defensive players he is going to be a 12 year {PRODUCING} reciever in this league and a great addition for our team for years to come! Adding him and whatever FA we get we will finally get to see what our QB can do with more talent which will make less drops and they will make tougher catches which will make tannehills confidence go up and his pysche go up and we will see more deep balls and more zip and better QB production game in and game out....

    So if we took Patterson at #12 I would be happy. If we took BPA at 12 and used 2 picks and moved up back in the first round and got Patterson I would go nuts and buckle up for our best draft ever. If we took BPA at 12 and took Allen with 2a then I would be pretty happy with it but would once again think about what could have been and watch where patterson went so I could see how he did with that team next year and when he put up huge stats wish we would have gotten him. and finally if we take Allen with the number 12 pick I am not going to freak out or be upset but I definitly do not feel as though there will be a smile on my face.

    When I say BPA my favorite site to go to is draftcountdown.com been liking the site for years, and with their mock draft they have us going with this.... Few teams have a more clearly defined need than the Dolphins do at wide receiver. However, this may be a bit early for Calís Keenan Allen and Miami might be wise to take advantage of what figures to be impressive depth at the position in round two or three. If the Dolphins do opt to wait on a pass catcher they could turn their attention toward the defense with this pick, where there figures to be a number of intriguing possibilities. Barkevious Mingo of L.S.U. is a rare athlete with a long, rangy frame as well as outstanding speed, quickness and a burst. Mingo, who could project to either defensive end or outside linebacker at the next level, is still raw but he appears to possess all of the tools to be a dynamic threat off the edge. The Phins could afford to bring Mingo along slowly as a situational pass rusher behind Jared Odrick or perhaps groom him as a replacement for Koa Misi or Kevin Burnett. Miami might also be in the market for a cornerback to team up with Sean Smith so Dee Milliner of Alabama could be in the mix if available. If Jake Long is allowed to leave as a free agent they could replace him with Central Michigan OT Eric Fisher.

    In this same mock draft they have Kennan Allen going number 23 overall to the Vikings and Cordarelle Patterson going number 27 to the Houson Texans and no other recievers going in the first round of course.

    Here is what the site says for the Vikings that makes me think even if they dont want to go WR they would be the team that could bait us into moving up if that is the way that we decide to go. The Vikings are clearly on the right track in their rebuilding effort but itís imperative that Minnesota juice up their anemic passing attack and provide young quarterback Christian Ponder with some weapons to throw to other than Percy Harvin and Kyle Rudolph. Calís Keenan Allen does not get the type of national media attention that he deserves but pro scouts believe he profiles as a potential go-to target at the next level. A big, smooth athlete with a well-rounded skill set and the ability to create after the catch, Allen would be a perfect fit in Minnesotaís West Coast Offense. If Allen is already off the board, which is a distinct possibility, the Vikings could turn their attention to guys such as Cordarrelle Patterson of Tennessee, DeAndre Hopkins of Clemson, Justin Hunter of Tennessee or Terrance Williams of Baylor. There is no doubt that wideout is the Vikes most glaring need but they could also stand to upgrade at linebacker and in the secondary at both cornerback and safety. It's probably be time to start thinking about some reinforcements for the defensive line too since both Jared Allen and Kevin Williams are now on the wrong side of thirty.

    And lastly here is what they say for the Houston Texans on taking Patterson which makes alot of sense with Andre Johnson moving up in age and needing someone opposite side of him not to mention he seems to never make it though a full season or sometimes even half a season so would they be our suitor if we wanted to move up to the first round to grab a reciever????? Itís clear that age is beginning to catch up with Andre Johnson, who is still a very good player but not nearly the dynamic threat he was just a few years ago. At the very least Houston needs to find a vertical threat to compliment and take some of the pressure off of Johnson. Tennessee WR Cordarrelle Patterson is a junior college transfer who only played one season of big-time college ball for the Vols but he could be the most talented pass catcher in this class. A superb athlete with an outstanding blend of size and speed, Patterson is still rough around the edges but with a little patience he has the potential to be a true go-to target at the next level. This would be an ideal situation for both player and team with the Texans offering Patterson an opportunity to be brought allow slowly. Houston could also bolster the depth along their defensive line and Alabamaís Jesse Williams would be a perfect fit due to his ability to play either nose tackle or the five technique in an odd front. Another possibility would be a right tackle, where former late round pick Derek Newton struggled to replace cap casualty Eric Winston. A cornerback or a safety may be an option too.


    I am a long time viewer/reader of finheaven and love to come here year round. I normally just enjoy reading and never usually find the need to post but after the past couple of years I am seeing some of the gears being put in motion to have a good team and I am actually getting those wonderfull feelings again stirring around in my stomache....those feelings of excitment!!! nervousness!!! Happiness!!! Anger!!! instead of the ho-hum feeling i have been having even though being a faithfull fan and following every second of every game, every year! I havnt had these feelings in so long it was back when I was watching Ricky Williams rip teams appart and me laughing watching defensive players being afraid to tackle him and then our defense dominating and watching zach thomas roaming sideline to sideline making the occasional pick 6 as he does a flip into the endzone....ahhhh those were great times, i have been a fan much longer than this, these were just the last memories of the last teams that I truely would go nuts about...but i am starting to feel that these feelings might be coming around again!!!!! and i am hoping that the rest of you can understand and are starting to get those stirrings in your stomache as well!!!! because they are great feelings they are one of the reasons we are fans, why we watch the game!!! why for those 3 hours we are at the game or glued to the tv from our couch or favorite seat in a bar or resteraunt...going through all the ups and downs that the game gives us the overwhelming warmth and happiness that overcomes you with a great play!!! or the blood leaving your face as you give a blank look at the tv when the other team has an amazing play and you think the game is over and the dolphins have lost......I truely feel that this year coming up if we get the right players and keep the right ones that we will have a team that will take you through the emotional roller coaster that we have been missing the past couple of years and make you a rabid dolphins fan again as we triumphantly march into the 2013/2014 playoffs!!!!!
    Last edited by AcidBath; 01-21-2013 at 08:59 AM.
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    Once upon a time I thought Keenan Allen had this because of his better physicality than Cordarrelle Patterson. But as I saw more games and saw a lot more of what was going on more away from the ball, the physicality edge is still there but not as dramatic a difference as I once thought. Patterson is a big dude and doesn't mind getting physical with people. What's more, he's got a competitive spirit to him that you can sense on the tape, and to me that means that as he's taught better and put under a staff that demands more out of him, he'll be even more physical at the next level.

    Now on the other hand I'm not sure the gears are in motion like you say for Miami to be a great team. We'll just have to see on that. I like Ryan Tannehill. I don't think he's going to jump up and suddenly be a Russell Wilson. I've always compared him to Joe Flacco. But as you can see, Flacco in his 5th year is now a Super Bowl-bound quarterback, so I don't mean offense when I say he's like a Flacco. I just think there's another level beyond Flacco (which Russell Wilson might ALREADY be at, honestly) and I'm not sure Tannehill will get to it.

    But anyway the reason I'm not sure the gears are in motion as you say is the following.

    The Dolphins have $46 million in expected cap room. They are expected to release Richard Marshall which will put them between $49-50 million, but they'll need $6-7 million for draft picks which puts them back down at $43 million. So they have $43 million in room and 5 picks in the first two days of the Draft to cover the following liabilities:

    *WR Brandon Marshall (starter)
    LT Jake Long (starter)
    DT Randy Starks (starter)
    CB Sean Smith (starter)
    *CB Vontae Davis (starter)
    RB Reggie Bush (starter)
    WR Brian Hartline (starter)
    TE Anthony Fasano (starter)
    FS Chris Clemons (starter)
    *DE Jason Taylor (situational pass rush)
    DT Tony McDaniel (rotational)

    *Note: Yes I'm aware that Brandon Marshall, Vontae Davis and Jason Taylor were lost a year ago but they remain liabilities because the front office never replaced them, and in fact in the cases of Marshall and Davis the compensation they arranged for their losses was for the most part shoved into this offseason (which is why we have 5 picks on days one and two and not just 3 like everyone else).

    So they have $43 million in cap space and 5 draft picks to try and cover all of these liabilities. And that's if they don't voluntarily rip open more holes as they did a year ago. For example, I've had the feeling for a while they might not like Karlos Dansby after he publicly ripped the staff twice, once for cutting OchoCinco and a second time after the first NE game where Coyle was being questioned by the media for having Cam Wake and Jared Odrick off the field for a few snaps of the final back-breaking drive.
    Twitter: @ckparrot
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  3. -3
    Pro Bowler

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    I'm trying get on board with Patterson, but boy the way he catches the ball, or doesnt catch the ball, it makes me cringe. It's just flat out ugly. His lack of receptions this year also isn't something that I care for. He kind of reminds of me. Ted ginn type in that he may have A big game, but follow it up with 3-4 average or below games in the NFL.

    Once I look away from the highlights, I look at Patterson, and wonder where the consistency is that makes him a real good football player? Most of football isn't a highlight play, how many times can we really run a reverse to this guy?

    I really can't see philbin signing off on the guy either. I get the idea philbin likes far more polish on his WRs.
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  4. -4
    AcidBath

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    As stated of my presence on this site for a very long time I always enjoy and appreciate your post CK so thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond...you nailed it EXACTLY what i was seeing on tape in patterson when you said you can just see his competitive spirit which is rare and definitly a thing common in star athletes! Since he is still young and his body still has room to grow do you think the normal 5-10 pounds of muscle would suffice with his abilities and what he could do at the next level or would you want like me for him to get about 20-25 pounds as long as it wouldnt affect his game speed or not negatively to where it would hurt his game...I was thinking with his noticeable "competitive spirit" and the little bit of extra muscle and weight he would be YAC king!!!! and make a few plays each game that would make the fans go nuts and look at each other and ask, "Did you see what he just did to that guy/those guys?????" I am not sure which games/tape you were referring to about Allen but I just saw a solid player that will put up decent stats but never really WOW you or become a superstar...more like a stevie johnson maybe???? the ability to get 70-80 catches everyear...right at 1000 yards and single digit TD's but never anything more than that where as patterson's numbers I dont even want to guess but they would be pleasing to the eye. So which of the 4 draft scenarios would you prefer that i put up ck?????

    Lastly, what I was trying to say about our team I do not think tannehill will be a top 5 QB next year and i do not think the gears are in motion to make us a superbowl or AFC champ.....however I feel we are going to be a playoff team and we will start making a little more noise and get more attention to us....positive attention....and i just feel after you watch our 16 games this upcoming season + hopefully playoffs, you are going to have some great memories and will have a great rollercoaster of emotions that you have not felt in YEARS!!!! with this team. I know recently wish Bush and Wake there has been more excitment then the a couple years before those but I was trying to say...i know you remember 2002 & 2003....wow i cant believe it has been 10 years now that i look at it....but that was rickys 1800 yard 16 TD year when we went 9-7 and lost our last 2 games missing the playoffs....the emotions that year were AMAZING and very strong, like i said in the original statement...watching ricky run and just kill defenders to the point they would literally be afraid it seemed!!!! and the horrible feeling of losing to the pats in week 17.....and the following year was amazing as well!!!!! thats what i was trying to say to you that its going to be nice to be able to have those feelings again and i can feel them coming.
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  5. -5
    BlueFin's Avatar
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    I can't compare the situation Ryan Tannehill was in to Russell Wilson.

    Wilson had much more college experience than Tannehill, I'd certainly take the talent that was around Wilson over what Tannehill had to work with....Sydney Rice and Golden Tate being far superior to the Dolphins receiving corp.

    I see far more potential in Ryan Tannehill than I do Russell Wilson, and would not swap them.

    With improved weapons, Tannehill will only get better and better.

    On a side note, fun watching Colin Kaepernick advance to the Superbowl when so many "experts" doubted his ability and tried to label him a long term project. I wanted Miami to draft him, and certainly would have moved up for him versus Daniel Thomas.
    Jay Fiedler can take his'n and lose to your'n.....or take your'n and lose to his'n.

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    I would swap Russell Wilson for Ryan Tannehill in a heartbeat. And that's nothing against Ryan Tannehill.

    ---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xXwarXx View Post
    I'm trying get on board with Patterson, but boy the way he catches the ball, or doesnt catch the ball, it makes me cringe. It's just flat out ugly. His lack of receptions this year also isn't something that I care for. He kind of reminds of me. Ted ginn type in that he may have A big game, but follow it up with 3-4 average or below games in the NFL.

    Once I look away from the highlights, I look at Patterson, and wonder where the consistency is that makes him a real good football player? Most of football isn't a highlight play, how many times can we really run a reverse to this guy?

    I really can't see philbin signing off on the guy either. I get the idea philbin likes far more polish on his WRs.
    You really need to account for the fact that he was in his first year out of JUCO playing in the SEC against SEC defenses with a QB that already had chemistry with Justin Hunter who got the heavy bulk of targets.

    Derek Dooley said he's never seen a guy have that big an impact in that short an amount of time.

    I wouldn't exactly have called Randall Cobb a "polished" player when he came out. He was a converted quarterback who still was used all over the place in different ways with the aim of just getting the ball in his hands in space and seeing what he could do with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidBath View Post
    As stated of my presence on this site for a very long time I always enjoy and appreciate your post CK so thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond...you nailed it EXACTLY what i was seeing on tape in patterson when you said you can just see his competitive spirit which is rare and definitly a thing common in star athletes! Since he is still young and his body still has room to grow do you think the normal 5-10 pounds of muscle would suffice with his abilities and what he could do at the next level or would you want like me for him to get about 20-25 pounds as long as it wouldnt affect his game speed or not negatively to where it would hurt his game...I was thinking with his noticeable "competitive spirit" and the little bit of extra muscle and weight he would be YAC king!!!! and make a few plays each game that would make the fans go nuts and look at each other and ask, "Did you see what he just did to that guy/those guys?????" I am not sure which games/tape you were referring to about Allen but I just saw a solid player that will put up decent stats but never really WOW you or become a superstar...more like a stevie johnson maybe???? the ability to get 70-80 catches everyear...right at 1000 yards and single digit TD's but never anything more than that where as patterson's numbers I dont even want to guess but they would be pleasing to the eye. So which of the 4 draft scenarios would you prefer that i put up ck?????

    Lastly, what I was trying to say about our team I do not think tannehill will be a top 5 QB next year and i do not think the gears are in motion to make us a superbowl or AFC champ.....however I feel we are going to be a playoff team and we will start making a little more noise and get more attention to us....positive attention....and i just feel after you watch our 16 games this upcoming season + hopefully playoffs, you are going to have some great memories and will have a great rollercoaster of emotions that you have not felt in YEARS!!!! with this team. I know recently wish Bush and Wake there has been more excitment then the a couple years before those but I was trying to say...i know you remember 2002 & 2003....wow i cant believe it has been 10 years now that i look at it....but that was rickys 1800 yard 16 TD year when we went 9-7 and lost our last 2 games missing the playoffs....the emotions that year were AMAZING and very strong, like i said in the original statement...watching ricky run and just kill defenders to the point they would literally be afraid it seemed!!!! and the horrible feeling of losing to the pats in week 17.....and the following year was amazing as well!!!!! thats what i was trying to say to you that its going to be nice to be able to have those feelings again and i can feel them coming.
    1. I think Cordarrelle will probably keep close to the same mass he has now. Obviously every college player could use further strength and development, he probably more than most as he spent time at JUCO where I'm sure the program wasn't as sophisticated as it could've been.

    2. You have your finger on the pulse of the worry related to Keenan Allen. Is he just a "decent" receiver at the next level? He needs more balance after the catch, and he needs more consistency in catching the football. The key will be the character investigation. A guy with his skill set and super high character could be a stalwart in the NFL for years. But a guy like him with poor character could easily be "just a guy".

    3. I'm just concerned that this front office will continue to take on water faster than they can bail it. Like I said you've got 9 starting positions and at least 1 or 2 significant role playing positions that are liabilities. To fill all those holes you've got $43 million and 5 picks in the first three rounds. I don't think you can count on 3rd round picks to fill those holes (see: Egnew) so you're looking at even a wildly successful draft only nailing down maybe 2 starters and 1 role player, leaving 8 big openings to cover with $43 million. You had better re-sign the right players, and you had better do a HELL of better job signing free agents than you did a year ago...and that's not even accounting for improvement. That's just so you can stay the same.
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    My Perspective, Patterson vs Allen

    How nice would it be to draft a top flight DE with the 1st, trade our 2b, 4, and 7b to trade back into late first for C. Patterson, than get Hunter/Woods/Hopkins/Bailey/Austin with 2a !! Than use 3a - 3b for CB and either S or Top OL on board. Than BPA at position on need for 5 and 7a.

    Sign Jennings in FA, than have C. Patterson with another solid WR from 2a. Paired with Bess and Hartline!
    PLUS our top DE we drafted with our 12 pick!!
    If only ...


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    My concern with Allen is the lack of depth in his routes and then yards after the catch. I understand that's partially tied to his offense. Around 63% of Allen's catches came from screens or within 1-5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Here's a chart showing Patterson vs. Allen's average depth of catch and then yards after the catch:



    Conversely, Patterson drops around 8% of his passes, compared to 4% for Allen.

    I commented about this in a different thread but, I calculated what an "Average QB" throws to their number one wide receiver based on the WRs in this draft. I've found that if Patterson had a Average QB, he would have had 434 more yards due to an increase in targets and a decrease in misses. Allen would have lost 16 yards ​(pretty much a wash), essentially saying that Zach Maynard was about average in terms of % misses and targets at Allen. To CK's point, Patterson was targeted on just 20% of Bray's passes, while the average for starting WRs that I've done is around 29%.

    I'll have more on all WRs later (I need to get everything consolidated for a post/ sticking it up somewhere on the internet), but make your own judgments on that. Allen, by far has the lowest catch yards from the LOS.
    Last edited by NUGap; 01-21-2013 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Some really bad grammar
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    I'm a big fan of Cordarrelle Patterson and his teammate Justin Hunter. But, for Patterson, the sum of his question marks come before the ball hits his hands. I'm convinced he has the physical body for the NFL. He is solid enough to not have recurring injury problems. He is physical enough to survive the bump and run. He is determined enough to push for the extra yard. He is willing enough to block downfield. While he hasn't learned to properly use his physicality or elevation to their full extent yet, I see progress and expect he will be good in both areas.

    Patterson needs to learn the route tree, run accurate routes (exactly where and when to cut), run precise routes (consistently the same distance, degree of cut, and timing), and master his hot-reads. It takes a while to hone the craft/art part of the position, and he has a long way to go. That means he will be limited initially and the pace at which he progresses will constantly be the staff's main concern. If he goes to the right spot at the right time to where the QB can know what he will do and where he'll be without having to physically look at him and confirm before throwing, then IMHO, Patterson will be great. I think he has good hands and good catching technique. It could use some polish certainly, but the ability and effort are there. He isn't one of these guys who always starts to run before he catches it, or prefers to body catch everything. He is a hands snatcher mostly and he can adjust to the ball in flight.

    His after the catch abilities are amazing ... no extra work needed there.

    Patterson has enough speed to get deep and shows an incredible burst to create separation vertically, which scares the heck out of DB's.

    I don't see that level of deep burst from Keenan Allen. I see a good possession receiver, and a player I'd love to have on the team ... but not sure if he has the ability to merit #12 overall IMHO. He has some speed, but again, I don't see the burst, and continually throwing deep to a covered receiver is not going to work out well. What works is either A) absolute deep speed like Wallace, Ginn, Gates, or B) burst like Patterson, Garcon, Julio Jones. So, when people tell me Allen is a deep threat, I don't see him as someone who will scare the safety out of the box.

    Allen has slight injury and character concerns as well. While not a big worry for me, they are worth mentioning. What bothers me, is that he is physical but not physically dominant. He is quick but not super-quick. He has some speed but he isn't a true burner. I like him ... but as a prospect just don't love him. If he were available in the late 2nd or 3rd I'd love the guy, but not at #12. If we draft him at #12, I'm fine with it, because he is a plug-and-play player at a major position of need who I think will provide good play for many years. But he doesn't make me think we're possibly building an offensive juggernaut to rival the Packers and Patriots like I might feel if we took a chance on Cordarrelle Patterson.

    I put Allen in the same region as Robert Woods, a very good player to help out the offense who I would love to get in round 2. But if he isn't there in the 2nd round ... there are other options.
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