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Thread: Article: So what if abortion ends a human life...

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    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    Domestic Article: So what if abortion ends a human life...

    Here’s an interesting article that appears to demonstrate that many of those in the “Pro-choice” movement really don’t care that abortion is killing a human life (a point the author concedes), but rather they believe that some human life is just more important than other human life. I hope most Americans see this kind of thinking for what it really is, dangerous.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/so_what_if_abortion_ends_life/
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    By that logic, then no one who is Pro-Life should be OK with capital punishment, wars, or anything at all that can possibly take a human life. After all, wouldn't that then be prioritizing the life of a fetus over that of an adult? There is no way to try and explain the views of someone else without sounding like a hypocrite in one way or another. People just need to stop worrying about what others do to themselves. If it's going to send them to a fiery jail cell where they are anally raped by a lava-covered trident every day for the rest of eternity, then that's their prerogative. Why people spend so much time worrying about what a sinner is doing is beyond me. Just live your life how your bible tells you to and leave others alone...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    By that logic, then no one who is Pro-Life should be OK with capital punishment, wars, or anything at all that can possibly take a human life. After all, wouldn't that then be prioritizing the life of a fetus over that of an adult? There is no way to try and explain the views of someone else without sounding like a hypocrite in one way or another. People just need to stop worrying about what others do to themselves. If it's going to send them to a fiery jail cell where they are anally raped by a lava-covered trident every day for the rest of eternity, then that's their prerogative. Why people spend so much time worrying about what a sinner is doing is beyond me. Just live your life how your bible tells you to and leave others alone...
    Problems with the above post…

    1. It assumes that making a distinction between innocent human life and the life of a capital murderer is just as arbitrary as valuing the convenience of the mother over the life of the baby. A person can certainly be consistently “pro-innocent life” by being against abortion and yet supporting capital punishment.
    2. The poster uses the language, “stop worrying what others do to themselves”, this is committing the fallacy of division, a fetus is not part of the women because it has its own DNA, therefore those in the pro-life establishment are not worried about what women are doing to “themselves” but rather what women are doing to others.
    3. The poster refutes his own position by asserting, “Just live your life how your bible tells you to and leave others alone…” because the Bible tells us not to leave others alone, but rather to fight for what is morally right. So by telling a Christian he cannot do what he views is morally right, the poster is doing the very thing he is criticizing the Christian for doing, he is forcing is moral relativism upon the Christian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post



    Problems with the above post…

    1. It assumes that making a distinction between innocent human life and the life of a capital murderer is just as arbitrary as valuing the convenience of the mother over the life of the baby. A person can certainly be consistently “pro-innocent life” by being against abortion and yet supporting capital punishment.
    2. The poster uses the language, “stop worrying what others do to themselves”, this is committing the fallacy of division, a fetus is not part of the women because it has its own DNA, therefore those in the pro-life establishment are not worried about what women are doing to “themselves” but rather what women are doing to others.
    3. The poster refutes his own position by asserting, “Just live your life how your bible tells you to and leave others alone…” because the Bible tells us not to leave others alone, but rather to fight for what is morally right. So by telling a Christian he cannot do what he views is morally right, the poster is doing the very thing he is criticizing the Christian for doing, he is forcing is moral relativism upon the Christian.
    The bible says you should interfere with the lives of others and force your views on them? Sounds a lot like what Americans say about the Koran. But I digress, I don't think it says that. I think that's your interpretation. If the bible literally said that, we'd have millions of people all over the country telling each other what they should or shouldn't be doing. As it stands, we have a small number of numbskulls who harrass the average person trying to go about their day, and a vast majority of Christians who live their lives peacefully and out of the spotlight. So that begs the question, who is probably right? The vast majority of Christians who go to church, do their own thing, and leave others alone, or the few who feel like it's their moral obligation to tell everyone else how they are going to hell if they don't change? I'd say the numbers tell the story here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    The bible says you should interfere with the lives of others and force your views on them? Sounds a lot like what Americans say about the Koran. But I digress, I don't think it says that. I think that's your interpretation. If the bible literally said that, we'd have millions of people all over the country telling each other what they should or shouldn't be doing. As it stands, we have a small number of numbskulls who harrass the average person trying to go about their day, and a vast majority of Christians who live their lives peacefully and out of the spotlight. So that begs the question, who is probably right? The vast majority of Christians who go to church, do their own thing, and leave others alone, or the few who feel like it's their moral obligation to tell everyone else how they are going to hell if they don't change? I'd say the numbers tell the story here...


    Are you really taking the position that stopping someone from killing another person is “interfering in the lives of others” and “forcing your views on that person”? So you would be fine with murder being legal? Slavery should be legal? Child abuse should be legal? Rape should be legal? After all, who are you to interfere in the life of the murderer, slave owner, molester, and rapist? Moral relativism crushes under its own weight.

    As for your second point, scripture determines my beliefs, not what the majority of American Christians claim to believe or not to believe (fallacious appeal to popularity).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post

    Are you really taking the position that stopping someone from killing another person is “interfering in the lives of others” and “forcing your views on that person”? So you would be fine with murder being legal? Slavery should be legal? Child abuse should be legal? Rape should be legal? After all, who are you to interfere in the life of the murderer, slave owner, molester, and rapist? Moral relativism crushes under its own weight.

    As for your second point, scripture determines my beliefs, not what the majority of American Christians claim to believe or not to believe (fallacious appeal to popularity).
    I'd rather stick my dick in a meat grinder than talk religion with you, so I'll bow out here and let whomever wants to carry on this conversation do so...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post



    Problems with the above post…

    1. It assumes that making a distinction between innocent human life and the life of a capital murderer is just as arbitrary as valuing the convenience of the mother over the life of the baby. A person can certainly be consistently “pro-innocent life” by being against abortion and yet supporting capital punishment.
    One could almost accept this garbage from a non-religious person. But you have the cross so deep up yours that you don't even realize how much of a hypocrite you are.

    So a capital murderer is now being degraded below another life. Fine.
    But if you put two adults next to each other and one has done nothing wrong all his/her life, constantly helped others, gave all its energy and efforts to make this world a better place but hasn't adopted Jesus in his/her life is being ranked below a capital murderer who has accepted Jesus on his/her life. Suddenly a capital murderer is ranked above the innocent life.

    If you are pro-life you have to be pro-life across the board otherwise you are just selective pro-life based on your own morality driven by religion rather than common sense. And that makes you a hypocrite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trojanma View Post
    Right now in the field of medicine that I work private charities(religious or otherwise) are BARELY keeping up with the massive demand and they act as adjuncts to the systems we ALREADY have in place.


    Conservatives support charities far more than Liberals do, if the Liberals would stop trying to spend other people’s money and start donating some of their own to charities this wouldn’t be an issue. It doesn’t change the fact that charities are far more effective with the money they do get compared to the government and the amount of money it gets.

    In the field of Pediatrics and Ob/Gyn there are many hospitals out there that draw the majority of patients from folks on Medicaid. A drastic cut in that support would be a catastrophe. You are talking about a multibillion dollar industry. You actually believe that this shortfall can and will be covered by charities!?!?! You live in a FANTASY land.

    …so no one who was in poverty received medical treatment prior to the creation of Medicaid? Sounds like I am not the one living in a fantasy land here. Everyone knows that a private organization will utilize the money they donate to it far more efficiently and effectively than the same amount of money donated to the government. The government is slow and out of date.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackFinfan View Post
    I audit a lot of non profits, and a good amount are actually funded primarily by the gov't. People assume that non profits are all independent of the gov't, which couldn't be further from the truth.


    Well not all non-profits are charities, but it doesn’t change the fact that the money they do receive goes to far better use than it would with a giant bloated government entitlement program like Medicaid.

    Quote Originally Posted by phins_4_ever View Post
    One could almost accept this garbage from a non-religious person. But you have the cross so deep up yours that you don't even realize how much of a hypocrite you are.


    I really wish you’d keep things a bit more civil, but I guess I’ll have to just keep hoping.

    So a capital murderer is now being degraded below another life. Fine.


    No, a capital murderer through his own actions has forfeited his right to live by taking the life of another person (people).

    But if you put two adults next to each other and one has done nothing wrong all his/her life, constantly helped others, gave all its energy and efforts to make this world a better place but hasn't adopted Jesus in his/her life is being ranked below a capital murderer who has accepted Jesus on his/her life. Suddenly a capital murderer is ranked above the innocent life.


    Your misunderstanding of Christianity is nothing short of scary…

    1. No one chooses to do anything good in their life, so your first hypothetical person could never exist outside of your hypothetical, rendering your hypothetical meaningless.
    2. The capital murderer did not accept Jesus, rather God chose to save him by having His son atone for him and bringing him to faith through His spirit in spite of who he was. For this reason his coming to faith was not his own doing and therefore he has no right to boast for doing so.

    If you are pro-life you have to be pro-life across the board otherwise you are just selective pro-life based on your own morality driven by religion rather than common sense. And that makes you a hypocrite.


    1. Nope, a person can be pro-innocent life and still support capital punishment, a capital murder is not innocent.
    2. You are selectively pro-death, you support the death of babies in the womb but not the death of capital murderers, who’s a hypocrite now?
    3. Of course I ground my morality in my religion, Christianity being true is the only reason we can have morality that is meaningful.
    4. I am sure you believe morality is subjective, so even if that were the case you have no reason to object to me subjectively choosing to believe abortion is wrong and capital punishment is not. You’re hopelessly inconsistent.
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    All that matters in terms of abortion to me is that the mother should have complete control of what happens to her body.

    Nobody should be able to force the mother to do anything they don't want to.

    IMO while abortion is something that clearly nobody would want or have in an ideal world, the only time where i'd be totally against abortion is when the baby would be capable of living if a Caesarian was performed straight away. If a baby could survive outside of it's mother's womb, even with a lot of medical help (and that is the case pretty early these days with all the excellent technology we have these days) then an abortion is wrong.

    Other than that, you absolutely cannot take control of what the mother does with her body away from her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post

    Conservatives support charities far more than Liberals do, if the Liberals would stop trying to spend other people’s money and start donating some of their own to charities this wouldn’t be an issue. It doesn’t change the fact that charities are far more effective with the money they do get compared to the government and the amount of money it gets.

    …so no one who was in poverty received medical treatment prior to the creation of Medicaid? Sounds like I am not the one living in a fantasy land here. Everyone knows that a private organization will utilize the money they donate to it far more efficiently and effectively than the same amount of money donated to the government. The government is slow and out of date.

    Well not all non-profits are charities, but it doesn’t change the fact that the money they do receive goes to far better use than it would with a giant bloated government entitlement program like Medicaid.
    Now we are getting into classic ultraconservative boilerplate that is mostly based on fallacy.

    Medicaid Budget 2012
    612 billion
    Total Money Given to Charities in 2009
    300 billion
    So if you collected every penny that people gave to Charities you would still be dramatically short. Not to mention I doubt that folks would be happy about all their money going to one place. Regardless that sounds a lot like taxation.
    Also these collections are spread out over thousands of different groups. How anyone would imagine collecting this to be used as some sort of functional block? It would be akin to mass chaos.

    In regards to your other point...
    ...the old argument. If we only went back to the good ol' days when you could pay a doctor with eggs or a pie, everything would be fine and dandy.

    Allow me to throw some facts at you.
    Infant Mortality
    1935- about 55 per 1000 births
    Now- about 7 per 1000 births
    A dramatic accomplishment that is in no small part to providing poor folks access to care.
    Now people made up for it by having about twice as many babies in those days. Of course this tied up women to essentially child production and rearing.

    Finally to your arguments about how charities/private firms are more efficient at delivering care to patients than the goverment is almost like a theological argument difficult to argue.

    But I will leave you with this.
    The US has socialized universal government run healthcare system. It is the VA.
    The RAND corporation did a study on comparing the costs of delivering healthcare in the VA vs. Private.
    THE VA WAS CHEAPER!

    http://www.rand.org/blog/2012/08/soc...om-the-va.html
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