Welcome to FinHeaven Fans Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.



VIP Members don't see these ads. Join VIP Now
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: One in four Americans think God helps decide the outcome of football games

  1. -11
    phins_4_ever's Avatar
    FinHeaven VIP

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Oct 2008
    Posts:
    3,622
    vCash:
    5936
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Did Adam play football? He must have been the QB because he got the cheerleader (Eve). The QB always gets the hot chick. I am sure Eve was a hot chick. God is perfect and only creates hot chicks.

    Though I heard that God created man in his image. Did Eve have a beard too? In that case she probably lived in Buffalo. All the chicks in Buffalo are Bills fans and have beards. So Adam was a Bills QB. No wonder he screwed up. Never take an apple from a bearded woman.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "You may think that you are some kind of god to these people. But we both know what you really are."
    "What's that? A criminal?"
    "Worse. A politician."
    Source: Under The Dome
    Quote Quote  

  2. -12
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
    Bench Warmer

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jun 2005
    Posts:
    1,258
    vCash:
    1240
    Loc:
    Oregon
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by rob19 View Post
    The difference being that those parents don't control their kid. Since Adam doesn't have free-will and God pre-destined Adam to eat the apple, why should he be punished for it? God made him do it, & sentenced him & the vast majority of humanity to eternal suffering for it anyway. Doesn't sound like a loving and just God to me. It's absolutely nutty.


    We don’t know whether Adam had a free will or not, so you cannot say God “made” him do it, God’s ordination doesn’t have to always be active; at times it can also be passive. What standard are you using for justice and love by the way? God is the standard for how we measure love and justice so to say He is not loving or just is totally nonsensical.

    Furthermore, since God predetermines all that comes to pass & none of us have free-will, that means the fate of every person has long since been determined before they were even born.


    Yes, scripture teaches that (Romans 9, Eph 1&2, Acts 4).


    Whether you're going to heaven or hell has long since been predetermined by God, it's just a matter of moving the clock forward. It's like all of history is nothing more than a scripted play for God's enjoyment, & you're eternal salvation or damnation rests on which part in the play you were lucky enough to get. God predestined some people to not believe in him, & now he wants to send them to eternal damnation though they never had a choice in the matter? So just, so loving.


    All of this is correct except for where you said, “God predestined some people to not believe in him”. Scripture teaches that God’s predestination is not symmetrical, He actively plays a role in the ordination of those He saves, but passively plays a role in those who are damned. He merely leaves them to themselves, they do not want to please God or repent (nor are they even able to do so apart from His grace) and He allows them to get what they want.
    Total Depravity
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement
    Irresistible Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints
    Quote Quote  

  3. -13
    rob19's Avatar
    Soul Rebel

    Status:
    Online
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Mar 2006
    Posts:
    7,135
    vCash:
    6217
    Loc:
    Georgia
    Thanks / No Thanks
    1972 Dolphins Logo
    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    We don’t know whether Adam had a free will or not, so you cannot say God “made” him do it, God’s ordination doesn’t have to always be active; at times it can also be passive. What standard are you using for justice and love by the way? God is the standard for how we measure love and justice so to say He is not loving or just is totally nonsensical.

    Yes, scripture teaches that (Romans 9, Eph 1&2, Acts 4).

    All of this is correct except for where you said, “God predestined some people to not believe in him”. Scripture teaches that God’s predestination is not symmetrical, He actively plays a role in the ordination of those He saves, but passively plays a role in those who are damned. He merely leaves them to themselves, they do not want to please God or repent (nor are they even able to do so apart from His grace) and He allows them to get what they want.
    So scripture teaches that the fate of every man who has ever lived has long since been determined before they were ever born, except Adam? If God ordains ALL that comes to pass, then God predestined (or made) Adam eat the apple. Adam had no choice in the matter, he was fated to do so.

    Now, I don't know what passive & active nonsense you're spewing. If God PREdestined the fate of all mankind, then when he was writing the script for history, he MADE many people not believe in him, & sentenced them to eternal damnation anyway. So he doesn't "merely leave them to themselves", because he wrote the script that way; you can't have it both ways. They have no free-will, remember? They have absolutely no choice in not believing in God, because God predestined them to do so.

    Since these nonbelievers have no free-will, and God made them (or predestined them) to not believe in him & they had no choice in the matter as it was their fate (or role in God's cosmic play), then how can you possibly claim this is a loving & just God? You can't, because that sort of behavior is evil & sadistic. Also, since no man has free-will, God made Hitler kill 6 million Jews. God made Stalin kill the countless millions he killed. God made those terrorists blow up the twin-towers. God made homosexuality a sin that would send you to hell forever, & then predestined people to be gay. God supposedly flooded the Earth & drowned all but Noah's family because he was mad at people, even though he predestined those people to behave in that way. God is directly responsible for every reprehensible act that's ever been committed, & for what, his amusement?

    If that's your standard for love and justice then you can keep it.

    Quote Quote  

  4. -14
    rob19's Avatar
    Soul Rebel

    Status:
    Online
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Mar 2006
    Posts:
    7,135
    vCash:
    6217
    Loc:
    Georgia
    Thanks / No Thanks
    1972 Dolphins Logo
    If it's any consolation, the Hindus have a similar notion of the universe as a scripted play. The main differences of course being that God is not some entity who's separate from everyone and everything, but IS everyone and everything; playing all their roles at once, experiencing their joys and sorrows, & setting limitations for himself on an otherwise limitless being. The other major difference being that no one is being arbitrarily placed in any heaven, or sentenced to any eternity spent in a fiery pit. The Hindu's don't even believe in ego-souls (or your specific personality-based soul), as they believe all the individual souls (Atman), are all really just manifestations of the one soul (Brahma).



    In Ricky's 30 for 30 after he had spent time in India he also talked briefly about the notion of the world as a scripted play:


    I will never say there isn't a "God", but I'm not into any one religion's dogma. They're just man-made creation stories, desperately trying to quell our burning monkey desire to think we understand our surrounding. The bible says it's a sin to wear two different types of cloth (among many other silly things), & I'm supposed to base my life around that thing? Forget it. Just try and be as nice as possible; try to be the religion OF Jesus, rather than the religion ABOUT Jesus.
    Quote Quote  

  5. -15
    Bumpus's Avatar
    Are you gonna drink that?

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jun 2003
    Posts:
    20,016
    vCash:
    16240
    Loc:
    West-by-god-Virginny
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Trophies
    2013 Dolphins Logo1972 Dolphins Logo
    Hmmm ...

    25% of Americans are idiots? I'd have thought that percentage would be higher.
    2014 Goals:
    1) Win the next game.
    2) See goal #1





    "The problem with internet quotes lies in verifying their authenticity."
    -Abraham Lincoln

    Quote Quote  

  6. -16
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
    Bench Warmer

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jun 2005
    Posts:
    1,258
    vCash:
    1240
    Loc:
    Oregon
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by rob19 View Post
    So scripture teaches that the fate of every man who has ever lived has long since been determined before they were ever born, except Adam? If God ordains ALL that comes to pass, then God predestined (or made) Adam eat the apple. Adam had no choice in the matter, he was fated to do so.


    Yes, God predestined or ordained all that would come to pass before the foundation of the World. No God did not force Adam to eat the fruit; Adam chose to eat the fruit, God merely permitted it. Welcome to the philosophy of “compatiblism”. Jonathan Edwards dealt with all of these issues in his brilliant work, “The Freedom of the Will”.

    The WESTMINSTER CONFESSION of FAITH states…

    “Of God's Eternal Decree.
    I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

    III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

    IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

    V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

    VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

    VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

    VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel. ”

    The WESTMINISTER CONFESSION of FAITH on Adam’s fall…

    “Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtlety and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.

    II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.

    III. They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation.

    IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

    V. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.

    VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.”

    Now, I don't know what passive & active nonsense you're spewing. If God PREdestined the fate of all mankind, then when he was writing the script for history, he MADE many people not believe in him, & sentenced them to eternal damnation anyway. So he doesn't "merely leave them to themselves", because he wrote the script that way; you can't have it both ways. They have no free-will, remember? They have absolutely no choice in not believing in God, because God predestined them to do so.


    It’s not non-sense at all, people have a will, and they act according to their will, it’s just not free. Their will is in bondage to their sin. They want to sin and therefore they will ALWAYS choose to sin if left to their own devices. The only time someone chooses not to sin is because God has granted them grace. So if God chooses to not grant them grace at a particular time that person will choose according to their corrupt will and choose to sin. God is passively ordaining that they will sin by not granting them grace, which is something they don’t deserve in the first place. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart in this manner; in such a fashion that Pharaoh was doing what he wanted to do when he rejected the command to free the Israelites.
    It’d be like having a dog who always wanted to run into the street, and the only time it wouldn’t run into the street would be when it’s owner was holding it back on the leash, now if the owner let go of the leash and the dog ran out into the street the owner didn’t “force” the dog to run into the street, the dog chose to. Yet the owner could have preordained that the dog would run into the street at a specific time because of the dog’s tendency to do so. God doesn’t force anyone to sin, he merely allows us to do what we want, which is sin. When we actually do something righteous it is because God has restrained our will to sin by His grace, so He deserves all of the credit for our good deeds but is not the author of our sin.

    Since these nonbelievers have no free-will, and God made them (or predestined them) to not believe in him & they had no choice in the matter as it was their fate (or role in God's cosmic play), then how can you possibly claim this is a loving & just God? You can't, because that sort of behavior is evil & sadistic.


    According to whom is that evil? God is the ultimate standard of goodness and justice, so anything He does is by definition good and just, including predestination.


    Also, since no man has free-will, God made Hitler kill 6 million Jews. God made Stalin kill the countless millions he killed. God made those terrorists blow up the twin-towers. God made homosexuality a sin that would send you to hell forever, & then predestined people to be gay. God supposedly flooded the Earth & drowned all but Noah's family because he was mad at people, even though he predestined those people to behave in that way. God is directly responsible for every reprehensible act that's ever been committed, & for what, his amusement?


    God didn’t make Hitler kill anyone, God withheld his restraining Grace so Hitler would choose to kill those people. Hitler still deserves the blame for what He did. There’s a great verse that deals with this very thing in Romans chapter 9…

    “And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory” – ESV

    The apostle Paul even anticipates your very objection with his rhetorical question, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”, and notice Paul clearly states that man is not even in a position to ask that of God, for it is God’s prerogative to bring glory to Himself through the redemption of His people and the destruction of the wicked. God’s judgment upon Hitler brings glory to God, God’s saving of sinners brings glory to God. That’s the whole purpose of creation.

    If that's your standard for love and justice then you can keep it.


    You have not even provided a standard other than your own opinion, which doesn’t amount to much. Not only this, but you ascribe to a view of reality (materialism) that doesn’t allow free will either. If reality is merely matter in motion, then a person’s actions are pre-determined by the chemical processes in their brains acting in accordance to natural law. You don’t choose to do what you do, but rather you simply do it because of the natural processes in your brain, so really natural law made Hitler kill the Jews, natural law made Stalin commit mass murder. This renders any concept of justice and goodness nonsensical; after all, do you punish water for freezing at 0 degrees C? Do you punish it for boiling at 100 degrees C? No, it’s simply acting in accordance to natural law, exactly as Hitler did. I’ll keep my Christianity where everything that comes to pass has an overall perfect purpose over your purposeless and meaningless atheism any day of the week and twice on Sundays, thank you.


    Forget it. Just try and be as nice as possible; try to be the religion OF Jesus, rather than the religion ABOUT Jesus.


    Yet, you deny the very things that Jesus taught.
    Quote Quote  

  7. -17
    NY8123's Avatar
    Sophisticated Redneck

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jan 2008
    Posts:
    11,596
    vCash:
    4492
    Loc:
    out in the Ding Weeds
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by rob19 View Post
    So God tells Adam & Eve not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, knowing full well they would, & banishes them to an eternity of suffering anyway. Flawless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    No, Adam and Eve’s freedom is irrelevant to the topic because their decision to sin occurred pre-fall, mans’ will after the fall is enslaved by sin because of Adam's fall; so Adam’s will was not like ours at all, it may have been free, we’re never really given that information in revelation. However, we are given revelation about our own wills, and they are not free at all.
    Was it an Apple or Pomegranate?
    Peace and Humptiness Forever


    Quote Quote  

  8. -18
    SkapePhin's Avatar
    Brady Slayer

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    May 2002
    Posts:
    19,061
    vCash:
    20399
    Loc:
    Washington DC
    Thanks / No Thanks
    It always astounds me the level of mental gymnastics some people take to rationalize their beliefs. It must be truly exhausting...
    Quote Quote  

  9. -19
    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
    Bench Warmer

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jun 2005
    Posts:
    1,258
    vCash:
    1240
    Loc:
    Oregon
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Was it an Apple or Pomegranate?


    Haha, I like it; probably neither though.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    It always astounds me the level of mental gymnastics some people take to rationalize their beliefs. It must be truly exhausting...


    It all makes perfect sense to me, which part are you not following and for what reason?
    Quote Quote  

  10. -20
    Bumpus's Avatar
    Are you gonna drink that?

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jun 2003
    Posts:
    20,016
    vCash:
    16240
    Loc:
    West-by-god-Virginny
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Trophies
    2013 Dolphins Logo1972 Dolphins Logo
    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    It all makes perfect sense to me, which part are you not following and for what reason?
    1) The part where you started typing.
    2) It's resembles the ramblings of a disturbed mind.
    Quote Quote  

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-01-2013, 11:07 AM
  2. So 8 games to go...realistic outcome??
    By fisi in forum Miami Dolphins Forum
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-04-2012, 09:41 PM
  3. PC Football Games
    By rickyfan85 in forum Gaming Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-18-2008, 03:00 AM
  4. Mock draft outcome so far/would you like Mia outcome?
    By zach8111 in forum NFL Draft Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-27-2008, 03:11 PM
  5. i think i will buy both football games this year
    By ltfinfan in forum Gaming Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-16-2004, 10:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •