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Thread: Teaching Creationism is Child Abuse

  1. -11
    Bumpus's Avatar
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    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phins_4_ever View Post
    I think the fear comes from knowing that if you teach kids the wrong thing you make them dumber and more vulnerable to brainwashing which is of course to your advantage. And teaching our children that the earth is only 6000 years is a step back into the middle ages and back beyond. We essentially would stop our evolution and move backwards. It may be again to your advantage because than people like you could spread the BS uncontested.


    I realize you know that you can’t win the debate, and therefore only want one side to be able to present their evidence, but I’d rather have both sides be able to present their evidence because it overwhelmingly supports a “young” earth. Censorship helps no one.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Radio carbon dating is an empirical measurement. Yes, there are instances when fires can throw off the measurement, but for the most part, this method is an empirical method.


    This is exactly what I am talking about; many people who believe the earth is old don’t understand why scientists believe it is old but they look down on those of us who think it is young as if we are the ones who are “ignorant about science”. Radio-carbon dating can only be used to date matter that was once living, it cannot be used to date the earth and it cannot be used to date anything that is even close to millions of years old (measurable levels of C14 are long gone after about 150,000-200,000 years). The C14/C12 ratio is empirically measurable; however how that is used to date the material is not empirical at all. It assumes that the C14 atmospheric levels have been in equilibrium prior to the industrial revolution (which actually they have not been, which is compelling evidence the atmosphere is less than 10,000 years old). This one faulty assumption is enough to make the entire system give grossly inflated or erroneous dates (we see this often when it is used to date something of empirically verifiable age). Radio-metric dating is the method they use to date rocks and it has its own set of issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    There is nothing that annoys me more than creationists. In all honesty, if Christians would remove this creationist strain from their midst, they would be a lot more popular. There is nothing worse than going to church and listening to the pastor pretend to be a scientist and spout off garbage to "debunk" evolution.


    Nothing annoys me more than people who think radio-carbon dating is used to prove the Earth is billions of years old. There are 2.3 billion Christians in the world; I don’t think we’re suffering in the “popularity contest”.

    I am not sure if these pastors are cognizant of the lies and half truths they are spreading to their ministry, or if they truly believe what they are saying. Being that many of these pastors are rather intelligent in other facets of their life, I would have to believe they know the falsities of their claims, but keep spreading the misinformation to not diminish the validity of the Word.


    Can you please be more specific? What are some of these “lies and half-truths” you speak of?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spesh View Post
    According to Statler, unless your actually there watching it happen without blinking, events cannot be measured in time. Dont look at your watch either, that ruins it as well.

    No, according to Statler…
    1. Radio-carbon dating cannot be used to date the Earth because it measures the ratio of C14/C12 in matter that was once living.
    2. Age is not an empirically testable property of matter, it must be inferred from the observation of current rates and processes, of course this includes numerous and often untestable assumptions.
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    You realize they can use different elements to date things? Other element isotopes have much longer half lives and can be used to date things much older than 200,00 years.

    Also, coral reefs, canyons, and many other things can be used to come to a reasonable conclusion that the Earth is much older than a few thousand years.




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    Teaching Creationism is Child Abuse

    Not interested in going down the rabbit hole with someone who believes that the Earth is younger than the Sumerians. This conversation only leads to immense, mind-numbing frustration.

    Every creationist I have ever debated always consults the same logic-defying playbook from "Doctor" Hovind and his ilk. It's not worth the headache to get into this again...
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    Teaching Creationism is Child Abuse

    Before I depart this thread, I just want to ask one question of Mr. Statler. Why should we only present 2 sides? If the "science" taught in schools is no longer limited to that which is testable using empirical data, but only required to be a "fact" written in popular books with large followings, what stops us from presenting other sides on the topic? Surely you would then agree that the Scientoligist's belief that life on Earth was seeded by extra-terrestrials should also get its due in the classroom? Where does it end?

    Should we discuss how Hobbits and Elves went extinct following the events of the Fellowship of the Ring?

    How about studying the biology of Humpty Dumpty? Surely that would make for scintillating material to engage young minds with the wonders of science!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Before I depart this thread, I just want to ask one question of Mr. Statler. Why should we only present 2 sides? If the "science" taught in schools is no longer limited to that which is testable using empirical data, but only required to be a "fact" written in popular books with large followings, what stops us from presenting other sides on the topic? Surely you would then agree that the Scientoligist's belief that life on Earth was seeded by extra-terrestrials should also get its due in the classroom? Where does it end?

    Should we discuss how Hobbits and Elves went extinct following the events of the Fellowship of the Ring?

    How about studying the biology of Humpty Dumpty? Surely that would make for scintillating material to engage young minds with the wonders of science!
    Shhh ...

    Statler still thinks the Earth is the center of the Solar System. The church said so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylerdolphin View Post
    You realize they can use different elements to date things? Other element isotopes have much longer half lives and can be used to date things much older than 200,00 years.


    …and you realize that if you are using a different element’s half-life to date something you are no longer using radio-carbon dating right? Radio-carbon dating cannot date the Earth, as I said.

    Also, coral reefs, canyons, and many other things can be used to come to a reasonable conclusion that the Earth is much older than a few thousand years.


    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Not interested in going down the rabbit hole with someone who believes that the Earth is younger than the Sumerians. This conversation only leads to immense, mind-numbing frustration.


    How sad! I was willing to have a discussion with you, even though you didn’t know the difference between radio-carbon dating and radio-metric dating. This is always the tactic used by those who think the Earth is old when they are pushed around, “I am not going to waste my time debating someone who believes…”, all too convenient. Reminds me of someone who doesn’t want to waste his time wrestling grizzly bears because the bears never put up much of a challenge, riiight :-P

    Every creationist I have ever debated always consults the same logic-defying playbook from "Doctor" Hovind and his ilk. It's not worth the headache to get into this again...


    You’ve actually debated creationists before? Paint me a bit skeptical. I am not a fan of Hovind, so maybe you can debate with me now? How is pointing out that radio-carbon dating can only be used to date once living matter “logic defying”? It’s a simple fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Before I depart this thread, I just want to ask one question of Mr. Statler. Why should we only present 2 sides? If the "science" taught in schools is no longer limited to that which is testable using empirical data, but only required to be a "fact" written in popular books with large followings, what stops us from presenting other sides on the topic? Surely you would then agree that the Scientoligist's belief that life on Earth was seeded by extra-terrestrials should also get its due in the classroom? Where does it end?


    Wait, are we debating now? The age of the earth is not empirically testable; I am not sure why I keep on having to point that out to you. Anyways, I was actually exposed to some ideas regarding panspermia in Evolutionary Biology in University, and I didn’t jump up and cry foul then. I think even Dawkins is moving that direction a bit because of the baggage abiogenesis brings to the table. However, I don’t have much of an issue with people being exposed to the idea of panspermia (although that is more of a life origins issue and not an age of the Earth issue), I think most people will find that the evidence to support it is rather lacking. As for the age of the Earth, there really is only two sides to that coin; it’s either a little over 6,000 years old or around 4.55 Billion (even though it was supposedly 4.3 Billion years old only about ten years ago). I am not opposed to anyone else arguing for a different age, I am just currently not aware of any such position out there.

    Should we discuss how Hobbits and Elves went extinct following the events of the Fellowship of the Ring?


    What does that have to do with the age of the Earth?

    How about studying the biology of Humpty Dumpty? Surely that would make for scintillating material to engage young minds with the wonders of science!


    What does that have to do with the age of the Earth? I am hardly the one guilty of dragging this debate down rabbit holes, that’s for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpus View Post
    Shhh ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpus View Post

    Statler still thinks the Earth is the center of the Solar System. The church said so.


    …and I am sure you still think Blacks are more closely related to the great apes than they are to Whites, since that’s what Darwin taught….right?

    Why would a reformed Christian such as me care what the Catholic Church ever taught? You clearly don’t know what you are talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statler Waldorf View Post
    Why would a reformed Christian such as me care what the Catholic Church ever taught? You clearly don’t know what you are talking about.
    Pot, meet kettle.
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    Statler Waldorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumpus View Post
    Pot, meet kettle.
    You didn't answer my question, why would a reformed Christian care what the Catholic Church teaches or has ever taught? You don’t know?
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    SkapePhin's Avatar
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    You can find some of my old debates on the topic of evolution with Dolfan7 from years ago on this forum by doing a search if you are so inclined.

    Scientologists don't really believe in the traditional view of panspermia, they believe that an evil alien tyrant named Xenu came to Earth and threw his enslaved people into volcanoes and nuked them with H-Bombs. The "souls" of these advanced people then attached themselves to early proto-humans, giving them sentience, but also all the baggage that comes with being human. You want that taught as "science" along with Genesis and evolution?

    The dating methods that we use today can verify without a shadow of a doubt that the Earth is older than 6,000 years old. That is all that needs to be said to refute your claims. I don't know why anyone latches onto this 6,000 year old thing anyway because the Bible doesn't give specific dates on any of this. All of this was simply surmised by adding up the ages of all the generations of men listed in the Bible. That is a rather UNSCIENTIFIC method to date the Earth.
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