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Thread: If there is one player we should not bring back, its Hartline

  1. -51
    hrpuffin's Avatar
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    glad to see the english teachers are here. do you have any football knowledge to share like how its not tannehills fault he misses open receivers but rather our receivers faults for not having a turbo boost button. Does tannehill throw to different receivers in practice that do have a second gear and he forgets on game day that his team mates on the field dont?
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    Because these guys dont want production they want flash, they want the big name. I guess no one pays attention to what happens in new england. Hartline is a better receiver than their entire squad except maybe lloyd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiamiNative0722 View Post
    I understand he had the best season out of all our free agents but hear me out.


    • If you want one of the big 4 (Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, Harvin) AND a receiver in the first 3 rounds, we CANNOT bring back Hartline.


    If you bring him back, you aren't going to give another big contract to another receiver and draft one in the early rounds. You might do one or the other but not both. The more likely choice would be Hartline and a rookie becauase you wouldn't want to dedicate so much money to the position. But lets say for some crazy reason Ireland pays Hartline and one of the big 4, I GUARANTEE you we won't draft a rookie in the first 3 rounds to split snaps with Hartline for 4-5 years.


    • If you bring him back, it will be for 6+ million and that is way overpaying, limiting what else we can spend at the position.


    This is reiterating what is said in the first paragraph. If you spend that much money on Hartline, you won't be able to do both of drafting and getting one of the big 4. You can do one, but not both. Point being it will take too many assets to the position and you'd have to be splitting snaps.

    The Solution


    • Let Hartline walk, go get one of the big 4, preferably Jennings or Harvin, (Jennings because he fits the scheme and is worth the money he is expected to get, Harvin because he is 24, mvp candidate before getting injured, and is worth the 10 million hes asking), and DRAFT a rookie to play opposite your big 4 receiver.


    If you bring back Hartline, you won't be able to do both these things in the solution, plus we would be overpaying for Hartline who is not a redzone threat.
    I TOTALLY agree. People here [including Ireland, I believe] simply do NOT understand that if you get high on mediocre talent, you are BANISHING playmaking talent from that same position.

    Hartline is the epitome of a slow, average WR with no ability to gain separation on his own, zero ability to outjump/outmuscle a DB for the ball, and HORRID redzone skills due to complete lack of ability to beat one on one coverage. He's NOT a number one or even a good number two WR. He wouldn't be a starting 1 or 2 WR on any playoff team. Period.

    Signing him to a one or two WR contract is simply suicide for greatness.

    LD
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  4. -54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrpuffin View Post
    Because these guys dont want production they want flash, they want the big name. I guess no one pays attention to what happens in new england. Hartline is a better receiver than their entire squad except maybe lloyd.
    1. Hartline is not in the same league as Welker.
    2. Outside WR is a glaring weakness for New England, and it has hurt them in the playoffs.
    3. Brandon Lloyd isn't very good anymore, but I agree that he's still better than Hartline.

    Hartline should be considered a back up, outside WR. If he's one of the guys you're relying on for consistent production, you're offense is liking trudging down the field. Sound familiar?

    ---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LDaniel7 View Post
    I TOTALLY agree. People here [including Ireland, I believe] simply do NOT understand that if you get high on mediocre talent, you are BANISHING playmaking talent from that same position.

    Hartline is the epitome of a slow, average WR with no ability to gain separation on his own, zero ability to outjump/outmuscle a DB for the ball, and HORRID redzone skills due to complete lack of ability to beat one on one coverage. He's NOT a number one or even a good number two WR. He wouldn't be a starting 1 or 2 WR on any playoff team. Period.

    Signing him to a one or two WR contract is simply suicide for greatness.

    LD
    Nice post.
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  5. -55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    Man this guy has a lot of threads, lol.

    The mistake people make is thinking that I'm just a hater and I hate Brian Hartline. Not true at all. In fact if you rewind to about 5 months ago, it seemed like half the damn board insisted that Hartline get cut because of his crime of having to deal with calf issues that stemmed from his life-threatening appendicitis complication. I posted videos of his work in 2011 trying to show people that there's no way he should even lose his place as a starter, let alone get cut. He works the sidelines really, really well...and he gets open.

    But now we're faced with a different sort of question. He's asking for a 5 year, $33 million contract and he should be looking at closer to a 4 year, $16 million contract. His talent does not warrant $6.6 million a year. It just doesn't. He's shown that by not really being a dynamic player.

    He can't hit that extra gear to run under deep passes, which places all the more weight on Ryan Tannehill's shoulders to be superbly accurate. There was one throw that was probably about 2 feet thrown too far, everyone is sitting here talking about how Ryan Tannehill needs to hit that throw...and nobody (except me) stopped to look at the fact that the throw was 160 feet through the air on a rope and only off by 24 inches. You'd like the throw to be perfect of course, but Hartline's complete lack of that extra gear made it so that the throw would've had to be perfect. Other receivers that are ACTUAL deep threats have bigger windows to where their quarterbacks can get away with more.

    Meanwhile, he's not a RAC player, clearly. He doesn't keep his feet after the catch. He doesn't show strength to break tackles. Think of the preseason when we finally saw Rishard Matthews get an opportunity against the Carolina Panthers. Matthews runs a slant and catches the football a few yards shy of the end zone. He lowers his head and bulls his way with physical power the rest of the distance until he's in for paydirt. Or think of the Michael Crabtree touchdown in the Super Bowl. Bernard Pollard is in underneath coverage, and Cary Williams comes down from his deep coverage, and both players converge on Crabtree to try and make a tackle after he catches the ball. They fall off and Crabtree is still standing, and he waltzes into the end zone. These are things Brian Hartline can't do. And he doesn't make up for it by being cat quick like a Davone Bess or Steve Smith, guys that can make you miss with agility.

    He doesn't show the strong hands and physicality to come down with the football in 50/50 or challenged catch situations. The only 50/50 situations where he consistently comes down with the football are when he's challenged by the 12th defender...the sidelines. He's fantastic at pulling in the football with the sidelines hugging him and threatening to make him go out of bounds. But he's not so fantastic when he's got actual defenders physically getting on him. And as for his tendency to drop the football, that's pretty well established statistically but not very talked about, his drops. He's not quite James Jones as far as dropping the football, but he's not far off that either. He's lower half of the league.

    Going back to the speed thing, when he does get behind the defense because he's a good route runner and a savvy football player, he gets caught from behind unless the coverage is blown to a very large degree. The latter happened against the Arizona Cardinals on his 80 yard touchdown. Kerry Rhodes blew that coverage by a very LARGE margin. Yet, even so...Adrian Wilson caught him. With the lead Hartline had on everyone in the defense, he should've practically been able to walk into the end zone by the end. But Wilson very nearly prevented the score. And earlier in the game when Tannehill found Hartline who had managed to sneak behind William Gay (who fell in coverage)...Hartline was caught from behind. Instead of a touchdown, the Dolphins had to operate their red zone offense.

    This is literally where the rubber meets the road of why he doesn't have touchdowns. It's not a fluke. If you look at targets and catches from 2002 to 2012, you get 367 wide receivers that qualify with either 60+ catches in a season (2002 to 2005) or 100+ targets in a season (2006 to 2012). Only 2 of those 367 wide receivers had a lower touchdown percentage on their catches than Brian Hartline did in 2012. That's it. Torry Holt in Jacksonville the year before he retired, and Laveranues Coles in Washington when Pat Ramsey was throwing the football.

    And maybe you could forgive that, IF he had shown a tendency to stick the ball in the end zone in previous years (as had both Holt and Coles). But in 2011 he had 1 touchdown and in 2010 he had 1 touchdown. You could also forgive it IF you've seen the kind of physical ability that suggests he can do this regularly, and circumstances just worked against him. But that's not the case either, as I talked about above.
    The TRUTH. End of story.

    I don't hate Hartline as a WR but if he's paid like a 1 or 2 WR, this team is committing suicide for greatness, imo. Read it and weep, Hartline-ites: YOU CAN'T GET HIGH ON MEDIOCRE TALENT AT SKILL POSITIONS WITHOUT BANISHING A PLAYMAKER FROM THAT VERY POSITION!

    LD
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  6. -56
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    Quote Originally Posted by finfan54 View Post
    BTW, alot of patterson supporters have no problem with his 5 TD's of his entire college career and 2 of those were special teams or end around, which isnt happening in the kickoff depleted NFL.
    I think you should be striving for better than this post. If you're going to express your negative opinion of a player, I don't think it's necessary to exaggerate or flat out misquote.

    First off, you say his "entire" college career which is clearly a way of implying that he scored only 5 TDs over a number of years. He played one year at Tennessee.

    If you're going to talk about his "entire" college career then you would also be talking about his 2 years of JUCO where he racked up 39 carries for 398 yards and 6 TDs, along with 113 catches for 1849 yards and 24 TDs, and 31 kick/punt returns for 882 yards and 6 TDs.

    Second, you keep misquoting his actual production at Tennessee. He had 5 receiving TDs. Not rushing TDs, not returning TDs, he had 5 receiving TDs. In addition, he also had 3 rushing TDs. And in addition to that, he had 2 return TDs...for a total of 10 TDs.

    So let's actually get that one straight instead of continuing to propigate a myth that has already been corrected at least once but has continued to persist for whatever reason.

    Finally, my personal opinion is the run plays need to be counted. If we're counting SCREENS for wide receivers like Keenan Allen and Stedman Bailey (30-35% of their targets were screens) and for wide receivers like Quinton Patton and Markus Wheaton (about 25% of their targets were screens), then we really ought consider a player's success on run plays that essentially function exactly like screens.
    Twitter: @ckparrot
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    Has anyone on here every played QB on a team with WRs that were slower than the DBs? How you could throw the perfect throw to them downfield, only to have a much faster DB beat them to the ball? How you had to throw into zero separation windows or scheme WRs open?

    If so, you know what RT was dealing with all year long, in Hartline and Bess.

    LD
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  8. -58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    I think you should be striving for better than this post. If you're going to express your negative opinion of a player, I don't think it's necessary to exaggerate or flat out misquote.

    First off, you say his "entire" college career which is clearly a way of implying that he scored only 5 TDs over a number of years. He played one year at Tennessee.

    If you're going to talk about his "entire" college career then you would also be talking about his 2 years of JUCO where he racked up 39 carries for 398 yards and 6 TDs, along with 113 catches for 1849 yards and 24 TDs, and 31 kick/punt returns for 882 yards and 6 TDs.

    Second, you keep misquoting his actual production at Tennessee. He had 5 receiving TDs. Not rushing TDs, not returning TDs, he had 5 receiving TDs. In addition, he also had 3 rushing TDs. And in addition to that, he had 2 return TDs...for a total of 10 TDs.

    So let's actually get that one straight instead of continuing to propigate a myth that has already been corrected at least once but has continued to persist for whatever reason.

    Finally, my personal opinion is the run plays need to be counted. If we're counting SCREENS for wide receivers like Keenan Allen and Stedman Bailey (30-35% of their targets were screens) and for wide receivers like Quinton Patton and Markus Wheaton (about 25% of their targets were screens), then we really ought consider a player's success on run plays that essentially function exactly like screens.
    Plus, to anyone who has seen either play, it's apparent that Patterson is a play-maker, a guy who scores TD's. To anyone who watches Hartline and is honest, it's clear (as your earlier post clearly captures) why he doesn't score TD's. Hartline put up as many yards as he did, because Tannehill is very good at throwing sideline routes. Hartline requires a QB who can throw him open. If you put a dynamic player in those same situations, there would be enough separation for the WR to do some serious damage after the catch.
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  9. -59
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    Quote Originally Posted by finfan54 View Post
    BTW, alot of patterson supporters have no problem with his 5 TD's of his entire college career and 2 of those were special teams or end around, which isnt happening in the kickoff depleted NFL.
    For what it's worth, this is the 2nd time (at fewest) CK has corrected you on this issue. I think it's something you should consider addressing - for the sake of integrity and credibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTOWNFINFAN View Post
    WRONG. We should keep Hartline and let Bush go, better yet PAY Bush to go. Doesn't really matter who we keep, if Reggie stays we don't have a shot at the playoffs.
    I don't share such felling. In many ways Reggie Bush performed over expectations.

    Miami Dolphins must add talent and Reggie was the most skilled offensive player of the roster.
    The guy is a hard-worker, he's the first to arrive and the last to leave a practice, he uses a throwing machine to prepare, also adds gym sessions and video studying.
    Few NFL players are so committed to the game.

    I think Lamar Miller will be his replacement, but will need more time. You can't leave college and be ready to play so many functions as Reggie does.

    Let me be clear about Reggie Bush.
    He isn't the classic tailback that runs between the tackles, as he usually turns the corner and goes outside. That goes against old school concepts, but works for Reggie.
    Why? Well Reggie makes every possible movement to mismatch potential tackles, changes speed, direction, spins out and uses his arms to break some tackles.
    With that in mind, Reggie absorbs the attention of several pieces of the defense, because CB must help LB to stop him.
    But Reggie is more than a regular running back. Often, after throwing some block, Reggie moves into the flat as a "safety valve" and receives the football when Ryan Tannehill can't find another open receiver. In other cases there are designed plays to add him as WR with a quick route to the band or crossing the field just behind line backers. These functions are hard to develop. We could argue Reggie wasn't as effective in New Orleans as his first round pedigree dictates, but he learned and matured so when he arrives to Miami he's ready to produce.

    No returning to Lamar Miller, he's a better running back going between the tackles, has excellent field vision and normally adds important yards. He's a football man, he loves to move into WR spot and get a pass from time to time, but he isn't a route runner. As much as I know, his skills as slot receiver are raw and will require a lot of practice. That said, coming from the backfield it's hard to adjust into timing execution, and Lamar must add some bulk to better his blocking assignations.

    Resuming Lamar is a better tailback, but everywhere Reggie shines, Lamar has to work on.
    From Mexico, GO PHINS GO!!!
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