I don't think Eli is the greatest, but there are not many other QBs that could have done what he did in 2007 and 2011. Certainly not Mark buttfumble.
all those yds went along w/ 12 more INTs and 16 more TOs overall but he had more yards!
it is worse but not by much considering how "great" Eli was and how awful buttfumble was, right?
Eli played in a crappy division where 9 wins got them in the playoffs, if Eli plays in the AFC east he doesn't make the playoffs in 2011. NYG lost 5 of 6 games heading into their last 2 games.
He led the Jets to 28 pts on the ROAD against a better Pats team in the div rd of 2010- NYG wasn't winning b/c of Eli, they beat GB b/c their D shut down a great GB O. I don't care that Eli threw a 5 yd pass and Nicks took it 60 yds or that he threw a hail mary to Nicks. Eli played well but he wasn't THE reason NYG won, he played a very similar role in his 2 playoff runs as buttfumble did in his w/ the main difference being the NYG D stepped up in the title games and ours stepped back.
Give mark Flacco's weapons, Bal would have had a SB by now in the last 3-4 years if they had postseason mark.
He had a ball stick to a helmet or he doesn't lead that drive for a TD. Some luck played a role and the game was only close b/c his D held possibly the greatest O in league history to 14 pts.
Mark is one of those QBs that could have done what Eli did in '07 and '11. you need a QB not afraid to play on the big stage, mark has proven that. You aren't winning w/ a Schaub, Rivers, etc... but they would have won w/ Mark.
In 09, with Phila and Dallas finishing at 11-5, even without the scheduling charity, buttfumble and the jets would never have sniffed the playoffs in the NFC E (and likely have ended up below the 8-8 Giants ....Eli played in a crappy division where 9 wins got them in the playoffs, if Eli plays in the AFC east he doesn't make the playoffs in 2011. NYG lost 5 of 6 games heading into their last 2 games.
And during the 09 season, didn't he crap the bed at home vs dead Atlanta in game 14 where they could have gone 8-6, not too many games after a losing streak of 6 out of 7? Oh and in '11, up 8-5, didn't buttfumble and the Jets lose their last 3 games?
If you want to believe that a defense reading-clueless interception AND fumble machine, with happy feet who is known to throw into triple coverage who mopes on the sidelines away from his teammates is capable of doing what Flacco or Eli did, then go for it. Personally, especially after that SD win thanks to a redzone interception, a 53 yd run by Shon Green and 3 makeable chokes by that year's best kicker, I'd be hard pressed to believe that buttfumble could have even accomplished what Rex Grossman did.
Last edited by Vaark; 04-08-2013 at 02:53 PM.
Wisdom from a "QB Whisperer::
"No we have our FRANCHISE QB and I want to keep him rather than get 2 guys who may or may not be productive NFL players.
Palmer's situation is different and if I had my choice between Palmer and buttfumble, I'd take buttfumble"
Mark didn't throw 25 INTs, but he didn't throw 31 TDs either. The Jets won 1 more game than the Giants did in 2010.
I don't understand how you give Mark credit for "Leading" the Jets to the playoffs in 2009 when it was based on what another team did or didn't do and then bash Eli for not leading his team to the playoffs in 2010 based on what another team did or didn't do. Had GB lost to the Steelers in week 17, the Giants would have qualified for the playoffs since they won 10 games. Since one team got in based on what another team did or didn't do (Jets), and another team didn't get in based on what another team did or didn't do (Giants), why don't you look at the role the QB actually played in the season. I know you are going to bring up that the Giants played the Packers and Eli threw 4 Ints, but you always say it doesn't matter when the wins or losses come as long as you qualify right? Eli cost his team the game against GB, but he led them to 10 other wins. Mark threw 5 Ints against Buff, 3 Ints agasint the Saints, threw 4 Ints against NE and 3 Ints against Atlanta when they could have earned a playoff spot on their own. He cost his team in all of those games and got to 9 wins with help. It is silly to me to give one QB who played less of a roll in the wins more credit because one team got help and the other QB who won more games didn't.
All those yards and TDs went along with 12 more Ints. Eli had 7 fumbles and 5 were recovered by the D. buttfumble had 9 fumbles (only 1 recovered by the D) and a lot of dropped Ints. Just because the other team didn't recover those fumbles or catch the passes that were right to them, doesn't make those mistakes any better.
I don't consider Eli great based on his stats in 2011 alone. I base his greatness that year on what he was able to do in the biggest games. Eli had 8 game winning drives that year and threw 2,478 yards 15 TDS and only 2 Ints in those games. Mark had 6 game winning drives in 2010 but threw for 1,507 ayrds 7 TDs and 6 Ints in those games. Had Eli played like Mark, the Giants would not have been in position for game winning drives. Eli played a much larger role in those wins than buttfumble has in his.
So what? The Jets lost 6 out of 7 and qualified for the playoffs with 9 wins in 2009. Had the Jets been in the NFC in 09, they wouldn't have qualified for the playoffs with 9 wins.
Eli led the Giants to 37 points on the road in GB. You don't care that Eli threw a 5 yd pass to Nicks who took it 60 yards, but you do care that Mark threw a 5 yard pass to Edwards who broke 2 tackles and then went 10 yards for a TD, or when Mark threw a 5 yard pass to Cotchery who took it 53 yards after that. Eli and Mark did not play similar roles in their playoff runs. Mark never threw for more than 200 yards in a win. He had 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins. Eli threw for 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins.
Some luck did play a role in Eli's first Super Bowl win. A lot of luck played a role in Mark's playoff wins. The difference is Eli played a much larger role in his team's wins. At times, he carried his team. Most of the time, the Jets carried Mark.
How has Mark proven that he is not afraid to play on the big stage? Because his team carried him to wins? We have seen more proof that Mark can't play, then we have proof that he can. If Mark was on the Giants, they never would have been in position to win those games.
What will you be saying when Mark is a backup somewhere? Won't you find it a bit odd that none of the NFL GMs that get paid to recognize winners isn't starting a proven winner?
Eli had 31 total TDs, 31 total TOs
Mark had 20 total TDs, 14 total INTs
Mark did his job, he was a rookie. In Eli's rookie year he took over w/ the team at 5-4, they ended up 6-10 so mark was better as a rookie, right?
I never said mark carried the Jets to the playoffs in 2009, he had a good year for a rookie(to that point) but was up and down. We got a break w/ Indy, NYG got a break in 2007 w/ the NFC being weak or they don't make the playoffs, they got a break in 2011 where 9 wins won them a div title. Good teams take advantage of breaks.
Why are you comparing Mark 2009 to Eli 2010?
Mark was the biggest culprit against NO, Buf, and maybe NE & Atl but he was a ROOKIE. Eli won ONE game as a rookie.
In 2010 Eli was directly responsible for the GB loss, Ten loss, 1st philly loss, and he was inept in the Dallas loss. The biggest game of the year he threw 4 INTs costing his team another postseason app.
Stop w/ the dropped INT stuff, Eli had 2 dropped in the 2011 title game. buttfumble has 2 INTs vs. GB that at the very worst should have been ruled fumbles and in reality both should have been ruled Jets ball. He also had multiple TDs dropped including Holmes against you guys so let's not deal in hypotheticals.
Let's look at the comebacks.
Trailed 16-14 at Philly entering 4th, wom 29-16.
trailed 20-10 entering 4th, trailed by 3 early in 4th at Ari- good comeback but was won on badly blown call that would have ended game.
led 24-17 entering 4th vs. Buf, largest deficit in game was 7 pts.
trailed 17-13 to Miami entering 4th, won 20-17
led 10-3 entering 4th at Pats, trailed by as many as 3 whole pts in the 4th qtr. was at NE 5 when he threw an INT up 10-3, NE then tied game off that TO.
led 22-20 entering 4th at Dallas. Trailed 34-22 after Eli INT set up Dal TD to put them up 34-22. Great job after that
tariled by 4 entering 4th at SF in title game. Led O to 10 pts in 2nd half/ot, both scores set up by fumbles setting them up deep in SF territory. Also had 2 sure INts dropped and obvious Bradshaw fumble ruled down.
trailed by 2 vs. NE in SB
where are these great comebacks? basically he had 2 nice ones, at Ari which they won on a bad call and at dallas where his INt put them down 2 scores.
buttfumble comebacks 2010:
17-17 entering 4th at Den, trailed by 3. no big deal.
Trailed by 10 entering 4th at Det, trailed by 10 w/ just over 4 mins left. won 23-20 in OT
led 20-13 at Cle. not really a comeback
D blew 23-7 4th qtr lead vs. Houston, got ball back dwon 4 w/ 55 secs left, no TOs at own 28 needing a TD. win 30-27
at Pitt 17-17 entering 4th
at Indy playoffs: trailed by 2 w/ under min to play. win by 1.
Looks pretty damn similar to me w/ the 2 best comebacks being mark's at Det and vs. Hou.
The biggest difference btw the 2 was NYG's D in the title game where Mark did bring us back from 24 pts down to w/in 5 but the D w/ plenty of time left couldn't get us another shot.
The Jets lost 6 of 7 early/midseason, they ended winning 5 of 6.
He threw a HM and a 2 yd pass taken 66 yds for a TD. The D shut down Rodgers and GB.
The 5 yd pass to Edwards was on a 3rd and 4, he broke tackles and scored. They were already close to the EZ. Eli to Nicks was 1st and 10 on their 34- slightly different scenarios.
He threw a perfect pass to cotch, cotch did a great job getting YAC. Nicks bounce doff a defender and got away from 3 other defenders to go 66 yds for the TD. where was Mark's Hail Mary TD?
how did a lot of luck play a role for Mark? where is the evidence of this? mark and Eli both played big roles for their teams and both relied on their defenses to win. The difference is NYG's Ds played great throughout while mark's played great for 2 games. Change the QBs you get the same team result.
B/c he played excellent football on the big stage. You don't carry bad QBs to 4 road playoff wins, it just doesn't happen.
after 6 playoff games each mark has 9 TDs and 3 INTs while leading his O to 20 PPG, Eli had 8 TDs w/ 5 INts leading his O to 17.5 PPG- which is better?
Overall Eli has led his O's to 19.4 PPG and has 17 TDs and 8 INTs
prorate Mark to 11 games and he has 17 TDs, 6 INTs, leading O to 20 PPG
If Mark had the talent he had to work w/ in '10 or what Eli always has, what Ryan has, what Flacco has he'd be winning big again too. It's not his fault we had no talent around him last year.
Eli had 31 TDs and 30 total turnovers if you want to count the recovered fumbles. Mark still had 11 fewer TDS, 13 INTs and 9 fumbles. Only 1 of those 9 fumbles were recovered by the D. That doesn't fool me. Mark averages nearly 11 fumbles a season. Eli throughout his career averages 8. The fumble recovery rate has varied every year. In 2009, Mark fumbled 10 times, and only 3 were recovered. In 2011, Mark fumbles 10 times, and 8 were recovered. It is the same with the Interceptions. The recovery rate changes, the dropped INTs change, but Mark has been the same Mark for 4 seasons.
I don't solely judge a QBs performance solely based on wins and losses like you do. Mark's team winning more games than the Giants, doesn't mean that Mark was a better rookie than Eli. Mark had 11 more turnovers than he had TDs. Eli had 4 more turnovers than TDs. There are a lot of QBs that could have won 9 games with the 09 Jets.
I compared 2009 Mark to 2010 ELi because you give QBs credit for wins and leading their team to the playoffs. Eli contributed to a lot more to his team's 10 wins then Mark did to his team's 9 wins. One QB made the playoffs based on getting some help, and the other team missed out based on not getting help. When I am looking at what the QB actually did to help his team, that doesn't mean much to me.
It doesn't really matter to me what the score was coming in to the 4th quarter. I care about the role the QB played the entire game.
Eli's role in comeback wins 2,478 yards 15 TDS and 2 Ints
Mark's role in comeback wins 1,507 ayrds 7 TDs and 6 Ints
Mark threw for 971 fewer yards, 8 fewer TDS and 4 more INTs in his comeback wins, but other than that, those comeback wins look real similar.
The point is, you don't care what the QB actually did when it comes to Mark, but you do care when ELi makes a short pass and his guy does the rest. The Edwards 5 yard pass where he broke 2 tackles and then ran for a TD is a slightly different scenario since as you said they were already close to the EZ. But how did they get close to the endzone? Was it because of Mark? No! The D stopped NE on a fake punt which put the ball on the NE 37. L.T ran 22 yards on two plays to put the ball on the 15. Mark threw a 5 yard pass on that drive which resulted in a TD. Eli faced a 3rd and 11 from his own 19 and completed a 15 yard pass for the first down before his pass to Nicks. He threw a 16 yard pass to Nicks on 1st down on the very next play, who took it the rest of the way. That is slightly different wouldn't you say? Eli was more responsible for that TD than Mark was for the TD to Edwards.
Where is Mark's HM TD? I don't know. Where is Mark's 37 points on offense? Eli's HM pass was when the Giants were on the Packers 37 yard line, so it wasn't a miracle pass. It is very hypocritical of you to say that it is the QBs job to get the ball to his playmakers when it is Mark who makes a short pass that the receiver takes for a long gain, but when it is Eli you use the short pass as a way to discredit him. Especially when it really wasn't short pass like Mark's. It was a 16 yard pass.
How did a lot of luck play a role for Mark? There is another thread somewhere, I think it is titled luck come a helping the Jets again. You should check it out.
Wait a minute, you don't really care what Mark's stats are in those losses do you? You know where he nearly doubled his TD total in garbage time. What did he do in his team's wins? What did Eli do in his team's wins?
Mark never threw for more than 200 yards in a win.
Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins.
Even if you prorate his stats to make it 8 wins each, Mark is still 743 yards short of Eli. 5 TDS short of Eli, and doulbe the amount of Ints.
Mark has never won big. His team did. Mark hasn't changed much as a QB since his rookie season.
Eli is a 2 time Super Bowl MVP. Mark is struggling to remain a starting QB in this league. But Mark could have done what Eli did.
Convenient fantasy numbers aside, when it comes to "The Smell Test" comparing buttfumble to either Flacco or Eli is as inane as comparing Lindsay Lohan to Meryl Streep or Helen Mirren!
When it comes down to it, the best arbiters of relative value are the league's front offices in terms of informed opinions coupled with fiscal restraints. Flacco was recently re-signed by one of the acknowledged savviest GMs for the richest QB contract to that point... at the expense of sacrificing some of his other teammates. Eli earned about $20MM in 2013, resigned by a GM whose team won 2SBs. OTOH, a GM who got kicked to the curb, extended buttfumble for $17MM unncessarily and undeservedly thus putting the jest in cap hell.
Bottom-line, Flacco if franchised would have easily been snatched up for at least a first as a bargain. Likewise, Eli would likely go for a first and more if on the trading block. Compare that to buttfumble, historically the least accurate starting QB in the league since JaMarcus with 1 legit winning season in 4. If anyone thinks he'd be worth more than a typical back-up's $$ at this point, or more than a 5th round selection - if that, well hell, I've got a shiny bridge in Brooklyn I can let you have cheap.
Week 17 was meaningless, if they won in week 16 they would have made it. He threw 4 INts and they got smoked.
You win the required amount of games in any given season to make it, Miami had control of their destiny facing 3 non playoff teams to end 2009- they lost all 3 including 2 at home. Houston could have beaten us at home week 1 and they would have made, we got a break(a slight break) and we took advantage like good tams do.
Mark had ONE fumble lost in 2010
8 and 11 are close, right?
Eli also contributed a lot more to their losses in 2010 while he was in year 7 vs. a ROOKIE buttfumble in 2009.
who cares about the total #s? it's about what they did in critical situations and I already blew up that silly comeback stat for Eli, he had 2 good ones and one only happened b/c of an atrocious call.
The 2 most impressive comeback wins belong to mark in that list.
Ok, they got good FP on that possession. Eli led NYG to 10 pts 2nd half/ot at SF, all 10 pts were a direct result of TOs that set them up deep in SF territory but that's ok?
he didn't put up 37 pts b/c he didn't have a 5 yd pass turned itno a 66 yarder or a completed Hail mary. he also didn't get 4 TOs from their opponent.
In 6 postseason games we have forced a total of 8 TOs, in that one GB game the Giants got FOUR TOs. In their 8 postseason games in their SB run they forced 14 TOs. do you think that helps?
show me the garbage time points? he's terrible in garbage time. I will bet Eli had better #s in garbage time. Show actual examples instead of cumulative stats w/o context.
Eli is a 2 time SB MVP that didn't earn either one of those awards, mark would be doing similar things and would have 2 SBs if he played w/ the Giants in those years or had the immense talent to throw to that Eli has always had. When Mark had good talent he helped us to 2 title games, Eli couldn't even make the playoffs 3 of the last 4 years w/ that talent.
Garbage time TDs:
MAYBE a TD in the Buf game though it was thrown in the 3rd qtr to put us up 31-7.
well call it 1 TD in garbage time in 2010
TD late in 38-14 loss to Indy
TD late in 34-10 win at Hou
if we call the buttfumble TD garbage time against Buf we'd need to call a TD to put NYg up 35-0 at Sea garbage time
TD trailing 33-13 vs. Dal
4 garbage time TDs for Eli, 1 for Mark. 4 is more than 1, right?
If mark hasn't won big than Eli hasn't b/c it was Eli's team that won those SBs- specifically his great defense which carried them.
Is he gone yet??