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Thread: Schein thinks the Bills will be this year's Cinderella

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    A thread on the Bills has been hijacked and turned in to a debate about a horrible QB. Give it up guys. Junc has been spewing on and on to a tune of 320 pages in one thread about Sanchez at TGG. He won't give up until you stop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    He played a role, it was a very cold and windy day. did you notice Matt Ryan couldn't do anything all day either? we had a 4 pt lead late, the D shut down Atl all day but w/ the game on the line w/ 4 mins left they allowed Atl to go 73 yds for the TD. The D blew it, it wasn't all their fault but they blew the game.
    Matt Ryan was facing the Jets #1 ranked passing D. Mark Sanchez was facing the #28 ranked Falcons passing D. If any other QB led his team to 7 points (In the first quarter) and did nothing else all game except throw 3 picks including one with the game on the line, you would be blaming the QB. But because it is Mark, you blame the D for allowing 10 points!

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    When Mark has had quality weapons he's been in the title game each year.
    When Mark has had a top ranked D and a top ranked rushing O, he has been in the title game.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    but they both led a ton of GW drives those 2 seasons? who cares about the #s, it's about getting the Ws.
    If I'm comparing QBs, I care. Tebow got a win against KC by only completing 2 passes. I'm not going to give him the same amount of credit I'll give another QB who played a much larger role in a win.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    prorate Mark's #s to the same # of attempts and the #s are almost identical which means mark was just as efficient as Eli despite less talent and a D that didn't step up in title games.
    You can't take a QB who is in a game manager type role and prorate his numbers. Just because Mark was 12 of 15 in his first playoff game, didn't mean he was going to go 36 of 45 over 3 games. The very next game agasint the Chargers he completed 12 of 23. In Mark's 4 playoff wins, he attempted 94 passes. In Eli's last 4 playoff wins, he attempted 163 passes. That tells you which QB was relied upon more. Eli attempted 69 more passes and still averaged over a yard more per completion.


    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    Oh the D wasn't playing in the 2nd half? he barely had the ball in the first half b/c the D allowed Pitt to control the clock.
    He had it long enough to attempt 13 passes. He only completed 6 of them for 56 yards. He could have had the ball longer if he didn't go 3 and out in 50% of his drives in the first half. No, I don't think Pitt was playing the same D in the second half up 21 points.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    who is giving all the credit to the QB? just stating a fact that Mark's Os have scored more and the difference btw the 2 gas been the Ds and STs.

    you can keep posting those out of context #s that don't help your argument all you want, prorate Mark's #s to the same # of attempts and the #s are almost identical.
    You are giving all the credit to the QB when you compare Mark's wins to Eli's. The QBs played completely different roles. One was a much bigger part of his team's scores and wins, but you act like since both guys won games, they are the same QB. Let's take a look at the role each QB played in their team's scoring drives in their playoff wins. In the Jets first two playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives.

    Mark contributed:

    147 yards, 1 TD, and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Bengals.
    13 yards, 1 TD and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Chargers.

    So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 160 yards 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions.

    In the Jets next 2 playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives again.

    Sanchez contributed:

    78 yards and had (3) 3rd down conversions against the Colts.

    143 yards, 3TDs and had (3) 3rd down conversion against NE.

    So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 221 yards, 3TDs and had (6) 3rd down conversions.

    That brings his total contribution to the Jets 14 scoring drives to 381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

    Now let's look at Eli's role. The Giants had 15 scoring drives in their 4 playoff wins in 2007.

    Eli contributed:

    187 yards, 2 TDs and had (6) 3rd conversions against NE.
    127 yards and (1) 3rd down conversion against GB.
    125 yards 2 TDs and (3) 3rd down conversion against Dal.
    160 yards 2 TDS, and (5) 3rd down conversion against TB
    --------
    That brings Eli's total contribution to the Giants 15 scoring drives to 599 yards, 6TDs, and (15) 3rd down conversions.

    So, both guys had 4 playoff wins, and there teams had nearly the same amount of scoring drives but Mark contributed 218 less yards, 1 less TD, and had 5 less 3rd down conversion that kept those scoring drives alive.

    Let's look at Eli's role in scoring drives on his second Super Bowl run:

    190 yards, 3 TDs and (6) 3rd down conversion agasint ATL.
    255 yards, 3TDs and (5) 3rd down conversions agasint GB.
    149 yards, 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions against SF.
    169 yards, 1TD and (1) 3rd down conversion against NE.

    Total contribution in the Giants 19 scoring drives is 763 yards, 9 TDs and (16) 3rd down conversions.

    Again, both guys had 4 playoff wins and Mark contributed 382 less yards, 4 less TDS, and had 6 less 3rd down conversions.

    Let's look at the QBs total contribution to their team's scoring drives in both teams playoff runs:

    Eli, 2007, 2011
    1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (31) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

    Mark, 2009, 2010
    381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

    To sum that all up, two QBs both with 2 playoff apps, Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive. I guess you are right, they did play a similar role in their team's wins.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadDog 88 View Post
    A thread on the Bills has been hijacked and turned in to a debate about a horrible QB. Give it up guys. Junc has been spewing on and on to a tune of 320 pages in one thread about Sanchez at TGG. He won't give up until you stop.
    Sorry! I know I'm a huge reason this keeps going on. I can't help it. Even thought I enjoy it, I'm aware that it may bother others, so I'll stop for now.
    Last edited by The New Guy; 04-11-2013 at 08:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The New Guy View Post
    Matt Ryan was facing the Jets #1 ranked passing D. Mark Sanchez was facing the #28 ranked Falcons passing D. If any other QB led his team to 7 points (In the first quarter) and did nothing else all game except throw 3 picks including one with the game on the line, you would be blaming the QB. But because it is Mark, you blame the D for allowing 10 points!



    When Mark has had a top ranked D and a top ranked rushing O, he has been in the title game.



    If I'm comparing QBs, I care. Tebow got a win against KC by only completing 2 passes. I'm not going to give him the same amount of credit I'll give another QB who played a much larger role in a win.



    You can't take a QB who is in a game manager type role and prorate his numbers. Just because Mark was 12 of 15 in his first playoff game, didn't mean he was going to go 36 of 45 over 3 games. The very next game agasint the Chargers he completed 12 of 23. In Mark's 4 playoff wins, he attempted 94 passes. In Eli's last 4 playoff wins, he attempted 163 passes. That tells you which QB was relied upon more. Eli attempted 69 more passes and still averaged over a yard more per completion.




    He had it long enough to attempt 13 passes. He only completed 6 of them for 56 yards. He could have had the ball longer if he didn't go 3 and out in 50% of his drives in the first half. No, I don't think Pitt was playing the same D in the second half up 21 points.



    You are giving all the credit to the QB when you compare Mark's wins to Eli's. The QBs played completely different roles. One was a much bigger part of his team's scores and wins, but you act like since both guys won games, they are the same QB. Let's take a look at the role each QB played in their team's scoring drives in their playoff wins. In the Jets first two playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives.

    Mark contributed:

    147 yards, 1 TD, and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Bengals.
    13 yards, 1 TD and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Chargers.

    So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 160 yards 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions.

    In the Jets next 2 playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives again.

    Sanchez contributed:

    78 yards and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Colts.

    143 yards, 3TDs and had (3) 3rd down conversion against NE.

    So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 221 yards, 3TDs and had (5) 3rd down conversions.

    That brings his total contribution to the Jets 14 scoring drives to 381 yards 5 TDs, and (9) 3rd down conversions.

    Now let's look at Eli's role. The Giants had 15 scoring drives in their 4 playoff wins in 2007.

    Eli contributed:

    187 yards, 2 TDs and had (7) 3rd conversions against NE.
    127 yards and (1) 3rd down conversion against GB.
    125 yards 2 TDs and (3) 3rd down conversion against Dal.
    160 yards 2 TDS, and (3) 3rd down conversion against TB
    --------
    That brings Eli's total contribution to the Giants 15 scoring drives to 599 yards, 6TDs, and (14) 3rd down conversions.

    So, both guys had 4 playoff wins, and there teams had nearly the same amount of scoring drives but Mark contributed 218 less yards, 1 less TD, and had 5 less 3rd down conversion that kept those scoring drives alive.

    Let's look at Eli's role in scoring drives on his second Super Bowl run:

    190 yards, 3 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversion agasint ATL.
    255 yards, 3TDs and (6) 3rd down conversions agasint GB.
    149 yards, 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions against SF.
    169 yards, 1TD and (2) 3rd down conversion against NE.

    Total contribution in the Giants 19 scoring drives is 763 yards, 9 TDs and (16) 3rd down conversions.

    Again, both guys had 4 playoff wins and Mark contributed 382 less yards, 4 less TDS, and had 7 less 3rd down conversions.

    Let's look at the QBs total contribution to their team's scoring drives in both teams playoff runs:

    Eli, 2007, 2011
    1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (30) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

    Mark, 2009, 2010
    381 yards 5 TDs, and (9) 3rd down conversions.

    To sum that all up, two QBs both with 2 playoff apps, Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive. I guess you are right, they did play a similar role in their team's wins.




    Sorry! I know I'm a huge reason this keeps going on. I can't help it. Even thought I enjoy it, I'm aware that it may bother others, so I'll stop for now.
    So what? Matt Ryan also had much better talent around him on offense. at that point in the season Jones was wearing down. Greene & Jones averaged 3 YPC that day, the Atl RBs averaged almost 5 YPC.

    Again, mark and the O get their share of blame but the defense blew it. It was a cold, windy day. Not a good day for offenses and they allowed Atl to go the distance on their last drive after shutting them down all day.

    didn't have a top ranked D or run game in 2010 and made the title game.

    Tebow had a ton of comebacks where his D held opponents to under 10 and he needed one drive, where did this happen for Mark? In the comeback/GW drives from 2010 the Jets scored 24, 23, 26, 30, 22 and 17 pts.

    mark could win games w/ his arm, he did it quite often in 2010. Eli was a game manager too in 2007, he wasn't in 2011 but regardless of that they won w/ D. You have to be fait and not compare apples to oranges here, you need to prorate the #s to get a fair look and when prorated the #s are quite similar.

    You are fibbing again or at least not being fair.

    The D set the tone by allowing a 9 min TD drive to start the game, the O tried to give them rest by holding it 4 mins but it didn't help the D who got pushed around all 1st half. It's hard to get into a rhythm as an O when that is happening.

    I am giving proper credit, both QBs played very well but both won primarily b/c of their Ds/STs. They both needed to play well to win and did.

    you should check your #s, they had 2 3rd down conversions in the 1st half.

    By the way, he had 2 or 3 HUGE 3rd down conversions including the one where he bought time and made an incredible play to score the 1st TD

    again, at Cincy he was near flawless. I'm not sure what dragging out 3rd down conversions is telling us when the team won comfortably by double digits?

    it's amazing the lmngths you will go to as each point gets swatted away. what's next? who had the most play action passes? the #s don't matter, the results matter. Eli doesn't get to a SB w/o the D setting up the GW FG in GB and w/o STs setting up their last 10 pts in SF.

    I will have to look up your #s since the beginning was already off, I don't have time right now to counter this asinine point but I will.
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    Hey Junc, I have to ask you something. I went over to Gang Green this afternoon to see what is going on and that place is pretty much dead. There are threads on the first page from over a week ago and hardly any movement today. Is that how it always is, or has the poor state of the Jets turned people off? Or did they migrate to another Jets fan site that I don't know of? I would have figured that two weeks before the draft that place would be buzzing.

    I hardly ever go there and very rarely ever post. I got banned for a couple of months because I posted in a thread in July about how the Dolphins were going to cut Anthony Fasano because he no longer fit the offense. Jets fans were drooling over the possibility of picking him up because he was a Jersey guy. I went in and said that Fasano was not getting cut and that the Jets should look elsewhere for tight end help. They took that personally and I got a two month ban. Whatever.

    I returned in October and posted this in a thread titled "Jets Lose to Dolphins (rant here)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nublar7
    The Jets at this point would be better to ride with Sanchez the rest of the season to make sure they get a higher first round draft pick. Jets season is pretty much over at this point, better to get in position to possibly draft a true franchise quarterback. Sanchez gives the team the best chance to lose each week.
    It was smack talk, and it got me banned through New Years. Just keep in mind how good you have it here Junc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nublar7 View Post
    Hey Junc, I have to ask you something. I went over to Gang Green this afternoon to see what is going on and that place is pretty much dead. There are threads on the first page from over a week ago and hardly any movement today. Is that how it always is, or has the poor state of the Jets turned people off? Or did they migrate to another Jets fan site that I don't know of? I would have figured that two weeks before the draft that place would be buzzing.

    I hardly ever go there and very rarely ever post. I got banned for a couple of months because I posted in a thread in July about how the Dolphins were going to cut Anthony Fasano because he no longer fit the offense. Jets fans were drooling over the possibility of picking him up because he was a Jersey guy. I went in and said that Fasano was not getting cut and that the Jets should look elsewhere for tight end help. They took that personally and I got a two month ban. Whatever.

    I returned in October and posted this in a thread titled "Jets Lose to Dolphins (rant here)"



    It was smack talk, and it got me banned through New Years. Just keep in mind how good you have it here Junc.
    It quiets down a bit in the offseason, actually the worse the team is we usually get more activity w/ people whining about the team. I expect it will be very busy in the fall.

    smack talk on the main board doesn't work, I think we have a smack talk board. Imagine if I did that here on the main board?

    In retrospect it was pretty funny but at the time when everyone is heated up after a loss it's not a good thing.
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    Re: Schein thinks the Bills will be this year's Cinderella

    Quote Originally Posted by MadDog 88 View Post
    A thread on the Bills has been hijacked and turned in to a debate about a horrible QB. Give it up guys. Junc has been spewing on and on to a tune of 320 pages in one thread about Sanchez at TGG. He won't give up until you stop.
    This thing was shot at page 2 and to Junc's defense all he did was show up and say Carson isn't the same blah blah and a couple people wanted to go into Sanchez. His fans/enablers are as big a part of the gimmick as he is.
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    We discuss a lot of different points, so it would be helpful to me if you would quote specific points and then respond. I can piece together most of it, but there are times I have no idea what you are referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    didn't have a top ranked D or run game in 2010 and made the title game.
    #4 ranked rushing O and #3 in total D. Spin it how you like, but that is a top ranked D and running game.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    Tebow had a ton of comebacks where his D held opponents to under 10 and he needed one drive, where did this happen for Mark? In the comeback/GW drives from 2010 the Jets scored 24, 23, 26, 30, 22 and 17 pts.
    Why are you stuck on comeback wins? The point is the QB not playing a big role in a wins. How about the Atl game in 09? D help opponent to 10 points, Mark just needed 1 drive and threw a pick, yet it was the D's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    mark could win games w/ his arm, he did it quite often in 2010. Eli was a game manager too in 2007, he wasn't in 2011 but regardless of that they won w/ D. You have to be fait and not compare apples to oranges here, you need to prorate the #s to get a fair look and when prorated the #s are quite similar.
    Prorating a QBs numbers who attempted 188 less passes is ridiculous. Just because he was efficient attempting 15 passes in a game, does not mean he will still be efficient when his pass attempts increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    You are fibbing again or at least not being fair.
    I'm not sure what your are referring to. Being accused of not being fair is funny coming from a guy who makes little of Eli's TD passes while uplifting Mark's or blaming the D when Mark losses and then blaming the QB when it is someone other than Mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    The D set the tone by allowing a 9 min TD drive to start the game, the O tried to give them rest by holding it 4 mins but it didn't help the D who got pushed around all 1st half. It's hard to get into a rhythm as an O when that is happening.
    They had 4 drives. 2 were 3 and outs, and he fumbled on the 3rd. That had little to do with the Jets D.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    I am giving proper credit, both QBs played very well but both won primarily b/c of their Ds/STs. They both needed to play well to win and did.
    You view Mark and Eli as equals, so you are obviously not giving each QB proper credit for their roles.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    you should check your #s, they had 2 3rd down conversions in the 1st half.
    Of what game? I'm not talking about 3rd down conversions throughout an entire game. I talking about 3rd down conversion on scoring drives. I'm also not including any conversion when the QB handed the ball off to a RB. I'm talking about 3rd down conversions that the QB actually played a role in. I know you like to give Mark credit for things like handing the ball to the RB, but I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    again, at Cincy he was near flawless. I'm not sure what dragging out 3rd down conversions is telling us when the team won comfortably by double digits?
    It is 3rd down conversion on scoring drives that the QB is responsible for. It shows the role the QB played in leading his team to points.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    it's amazing the lmngths you will go to as each point gets swatted away. what's next? who had the most play action passes? the #s don't matter, the results matter. Eli doesn't get to a SB w/o the D setting up the GW FG in GB and w/o STs setting up their last 10 pts in SF.
    Which points have you swatted away? You are trying to compare QBs and are saying the numbers don't matter. Again, Tebow won a game completing 2 passes. That doesn't make him as good as another QB who won a game who played a much larger role in the win. Numbers do matter. Even if you ignore the numbers, you still lose your argument based on results. Eli is a 2 time Super Bowl champ. Mark is a 2 time AFCC game loser.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyjunc View Post
    I will have to look up your #s since the beginning was already off, I don't have time right now to counter this asinine point but I will.
    Back to this again huh? How many times have your numbers been off in the last couple of days? I'll go back and check them for you later tonight. If I happen to be wrong, I'll be like you and say that it was what I meant to say, or that my numbers were close.

    Ok, I went through NFL.com and went over the 3rd down conversions for each QB on their scoring drives. I had the amounts in each games messed up, but the total in the end was the same since I missed 1 for Mark and 1 for Eli. I edited the original post and fixed it for you. It doesn't help Mark out though. The end result is the same:

    Eli, 2007, 2011
    1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (31) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

    Mark, 2009, 2010
    381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

    Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive
    Last edited by The New Guy; 04-11-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AquaInferno View Post
    This thing was shot at page 2 and to Junc's defense all he did was show up and say Carson isn't the same blah blah and a couple people wanted to go into Sanchez. His fans/enablers are as big a part of the gimmick as he is.
    I agree it's not all on Junc. He is more persistent then anyone I know and people feed him. It just gets old rehashing the same stuff.
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    Generally, I avoid these pointless discussions like the Plague ...

    But, I truly hope Junc gets what he clearly wants - Sanchez as Jets starting QB for the next decade.
    2014 Goals:
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    2) See goal #1





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    Quote Originally Posted by The New Guy View Post
    We discuss a lot of different points, so it would be helpful to me if you would quote specific points and then respond. I can piece together most of it, but there are times I have no idea what you are referring to.



    #4 ranked rushing O and #3 in total D. Spin it how you like, but that is a top ranked D and running game.



    Why are you stuck on comeback wins? The point is the QB not playing a big role in a wins. How about the Atl game in 09? D help opponent to 10 points, Mark just needed 1 drive and threw a pick, yet it was the D's fault.



    Prorating a QBs numbers who attempted 188 less passes is ridiculous. Just because he was efficient attempting 15 passes in a game, does not mean he will still be efficient when his pass attempts increase.



    I'm not sure what your are referring to. Being accused of not being fair is funny coming from a guy who makes little of Eli's TD passes while uplifting Mark's or blaming the D when Mark losses and then blaming the QB when it is someone other than Mark.



    They had 4 drives. 2 were 3 and outs, and he fumbled on the 3rd. That had little to do with the Jets D.



    You view Mark and Eli as equals, so you are obviously not giving each QB proper credit for their roles.



    Of what game? I'm not talking about 3rd down conversions throughout an entire game. I talking about 3rd down conversion on scoring drives. I'm also not including any conversion when the QB handed the ball off to a RB. I'm talking about 3rd down conversions that the QB actually played a role in. I know you like to give Mark credit for things like handing the ball to the RB, but I don't.



    It is 3rd down conversion on scoring drives that the QB is responsible for. It shows the role the QB played in leading his team to points.



    Which points have you swatted away? You are trying to compare QBs and are saying the numbers don't matter. Again, Tebow won a game completing 2 passes. That doesn't make him as good as another QB who won a game who played a much larger role in the win. Numbers do matter. Even if you ignore the numbers, you still lose your argument based on results. Eli is a 2 time Super Bowl champ. Mark is a 2 time AFCC game loser.



    Back to this again huh? How many times have your numbers been off in the last couple of days? I'll go back and check them for you later tonight. If I happen to be wrong, I'll be like you and say that it was what I meant to say, or that my numbers were close.

    Ok, I went through NFL.com and went over the 3rd down conversions for each QB on their scoring drives. I had the amounts in each games messed up, but the total in the end was the same since I missed 1 for Mark and 1 for Eli. I edited the original post and fixed it for you. It doesn't help Mark out though. The end result is the same:

    Eli, 2007, 2011
    1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (31) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

    Mark, 2009, 2010
    381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

    Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive
    I try to go in order, it's a pain to quote each piece. I am trying to rush through thus stuff.

    4 ranked rush O thanks to Brad Smith in the WC and end arounds and a meaningless week 17 game where we rushed for over 300 yds. Our run game was average that year, that's why we don't just look at rankings.

    The D looked good on paper but this is the same D that lost 45-3 to NE, the same D that tried to blow games late at Miami, at Den, at Cle, Hou, Min and did blow a double digit lead at Chi. we won 11 games mainly b/c Mark and the pass O rescued us numerous times.

    He played a huge role in those comebacks.

    mark gets his share of the blame for Atl but not all games are the same, sometimes there are low scoring games. I was there, it was cold and windy. not a great day for either O but the D folded again in a big spot like they have done so often.

    It's not ridiculous, you have to compare apples to apples. You are showing cumulative #s where 1 QB had many more attempts.

    The bottom line is both QBs played really well in their playoff wins, both relied on D. One D showed up in all games, the other did not.

    Oh and Sanchez has played well in all playoff games. You skip over the Eli one and dones where he has THREE of them and is 41-74, 55%, 443 yds, 2 TDs, 6 INTs, led O to 9.7 PPG, 48.4 rating.

    I give Eli the same credit, the situations were very different and the execution was very different. The Jets had a great play call, mark made a quick read w/ a great pass in stride and Cotch had no one near him and ran down the sidelines. Eli threw a ball to Nicks where he was hit immediately and then broke 2-3 more tackles to go 66 yds for the TD. Very different situations plus mark's came just after NE scored and pulled w/in 3 pts late in the game.

    That 9 min TD drive set the tone for the 1st half.

    I don't view mark and Eli as equals, Eli passed him in 2011 and is far ahead of him. If they had equal talent I think they'd be much closer but they don't so you have to evaluate them overall on the talent they have to work with.

    Oh so now you need 3rd down conversions on scoring drives to prove something. mark had the biggest 3rd down conversion of the game at SD buying time and making an incredible throw to Keller for the TD that gave us the lead for the first time in the game.

    Tebow won games scoring close to 10 pts each time, he would have one drive. That's very different from Mark's comeback/GW drives.

    Pretty much all of them.

    You have said my #s are off but never proven anything.


    Mark didn't have Cruz and Nicks to throw hail Mary's too or dump off for 60-99 yd TDs. You seem to keep forgetting this point.
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