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Thread: Why Bjoern Werner makes no sense to me at 12...

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    Why Bjoern Werner makes no sense to me at 12...

    When I watch Bjoern Werner he played AND LOOKS THE PART of a LE or strong side DE, not a RE or weakside guy. Right now we have Cam Wake at the LE/strongside with Jared Odrick who also plays that role. Idk if it's just me but wouldn't we be looking for a RE/weakside guy to compliment Cam Wake, not a strongside guy? I mean, we already have Jared Odrick.

    Tank Carradine played the weakside DE spot and looks the part of what we'd be looking for imo at pick 12 (barring us signing Dwight Freeney of course). If we do end up with Freeney than I would say Tavon Austin becomes a real possibility there at 12.
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    I just watched film of carradine vs. Florida, NC ST., and VA TECH.

    I gotta say, i'm not all that impressed. doesn't seem to have any serious moves. Also, he doesn't seem very quick or consistant. in watching tank, I became more impressed with Werners overall game. more instinctual. the only knock I have ever seen is werner can get worn down and become gassed.
    Last edited by finfan54; 04-04-2013 at 10:18 PM.
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    warner i way better than tank, hes a better pash rusher and run stopper
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    I think you take Werner and find a place to play him.
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    He is the one player coming into the draft that I thought almost everyone would agree on that he is a dominant cant miss type player.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEd View Post
    When I watch Bjoern Werner he played AND LOOKS THE PART of a LE or strong side DE, not a RE or weakside guy. Right now we have Cam Wake at the LE/strongside with Jared Odrick who also plays that role. Idk if it's just me but wouldn't we be looking for a RE/weakside guy to compliment Cam Wake, not a strongside guy? I mean, we already have Jared Odrick.

    Tank Carradine played the weakside DE spot and looks the part of what we'd be looking for imo at pick 12 (barring us signing Dwight Freeney of course). If we do end up with Freeney than I would say Tavon Austin becomes a real possibility there at 12.

    I think Werner will be drafted between 15-20....I know CK likes him.
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    1972 Dolphins LogoMike Wallace 11Cam Wake 91Tannehill 17Dolphin
    Werner will be solid player in the NFL, but never that special. He will try hard and do things on effort. However, I do not see the athletic skill set to be special. Plus, I am not into blocking the progress of Vernon with another young player. Let Vernon keep getting better

    Not every pick BTW has to be special, but I think if the Fins are stuck at 12 there are corners that fill a need and a FS in Vaccaro that I am driving the bandwagon for. Also, remember before last year's draft there were rumors of the Fins like Fletcher Cox. With BOTH DT's in the last year of their deals, perhaps a DT like Richardson fits the bill. DT is one of the hardest positions to learn in this league so maybe allowing a year of development prior to starting is a wise idea.
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    I think Werner makes perfect sense. He played both sides at FSU.....mainly against the RT though b/c he was better against the run than Carradine or Jenkins (Carradine actually gets manhandled at times against the run which i don't understand b/c he's physically strong). Anyways, i'm not sold on Vernon.....i watched him a lot at Miami and he was the same player there for 3 years and here last year.....a solid but not spectacular DEnd who's better against the run for his size than he is the pass. He is very physical and plays extremely hard but he lacks change of direction and is lacking in pass rush technique. I don't seem him being more than a 5 sack per year type of guy. Werner on the other hand i see as being more fluid, bigger, more flexible running the arc and having an INCREDIBLE first step. He's always the first guy out of the blocks on the snap (another aspect he's better than Carradine). Drafting Werner would allow us to play games with the DLine, moving Odrick around wherever we wantd on run/pass downs, rotating Werner/Vernon/Wake to keep them fresh and even using all 3 of those guys and using them in zone blitz drops in space (allowing Wheeler/Ellerbe to do their thing). Don't get me wrong, i like Carradine too. I'm just a big fan of Werner. The only thing i don't like about Werner is his backside pursuit. Carradine goes all out and chases guys down 20 yards downfield while Werner occasionally jogs.....looks like he reserves energy sometimes to keep fresh. That can be corrected.

    All that said, i still think they go OL or CB b/c those are bigger needs but if Werner is there i would really consider him. There's not much after Round 1 in terms of pass rushers but CB is deep.
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    Bjoern Werner isn't going to look like your typical right end.

    But nor does Cameron Wake look like your typical left end.

    Because of Wake's uniqueness the Dolphins have been forced to build the scheme around him and change some things. Most of us think of Koa Misi as like a Sam linebacker because he plays a lot like a Sam, but technically he plays on the weak side most often. Jared Odrick is an overstuffed defensive end that really should be playing defensive tackle but the fact that he plays right end shows you that the uniqueness of Wake has to lead to some other unique things at the positions opposite and around him.

    Those of us that think that Werner can play on the right side in this defense must do so in part because of this unique situation. But also because if you've really watched Werner over the years you know that he's more efficient in pass rush when he does play on the right side as opposed to the left. He's got less to read on the weak side and he can just use his gifts to get after the passer, which is what Tank Carradine does.

    As I've been saying for a long time, Bjoern feels and times the snap better and more consistently than any other defensive end in the draft. He has a reactiveness to his game, subtle observations and anticipation that lets him move before others do. It's why he bats down so many balls at the line, like a J.J. Watt.

    People make a big deal out of 10 yard splits. Well, a 10 yard split has about a third of the variance of a 40 yard dash. The 40's will range from 4.30 to 5.60 depending on size and athletic ability. The 10 yard splits range more around 1.45 to 1.85. That's what I mean by the variance being a third the size. What I'm getting at is that for a 10 yard split, a difference of 0.10 seconds is about equivalent to the difference of 0.30 seconds in a 40 yard dash. It's significant. Imagine the difference between a 4.60 guy and a 4.30 guy, Tavon Austin and Brandon Gibson. That's the difference between a 1.50 guy and a 1.60 guy. Incidentally this is one reason I don't like 10 yard splits as much as everyone else because measurement error alone can make a guy go from an awesome 10 yard split to a terrible one. Measurement error will affect a 40 yard dash but only a third as significantly as the 10 yard split.

    But I digress. The point is on tape using 60 frames per second video I consistently find that Bjoern Werner's a full tenth of a second faster (on average, sometimes far more) than Tank Carradine in his getting off the snap. So whatever athletic advantage Carradine has over Bjoern (and it's likely a fairly significant one), it's more than made up for by the reactiveness of Bjoern Werner. And Carradine is by no means a slow player off the snap compared with others. Werner is just faster. It's like a quarterback with a quick release.

    It's not just mental. Werner has a full body snap off the line that is impressive and instantaneous. He goes from moving his hand off the ground in the three or four point stance to landing that first step of his faster than other guys, faster than Tank Carradine. It's not just about timing the snap, it's about the way he's hard-wired to react. It's the same hard wiring that allows him to read the backfield and react to the quarterback's throwing motion so instantly that he can reverse his entire body back into the passing lane and get air with a jump, raising his hand to knock down the pass. That's hard wiring, an innate physical ability.

    It was a blessing for Carradine when the guy who went down for the year was Brandon Jenkins and not Bjoern Werner. To that point Carradine had been used more on the left side to rotate with Werner, I believe. Had Werner been the one to go down I don't think Tank would've looked as interesting and been able to help his draft stock as much as he did. He'd have had too much to read, too much to think about at left end. What would've been a blessing to Bjoern Werner would be if the Seminoles didn't have a Tank Carradine sitting behind he and Brandon Jenkins.

    Initially when Jenkins went down, the Seminoles seemed more willing to use Werner in Jenkins' spot where he was trusted to harrass the passer on a constant basis, and he did that well. His first two sacks against Murray State did come on the left side although one of those sacks was kind of unearned as the quarterback rolled out to his side and then panicked as Werner came at him unblocked. But Werner's sack-strip in the end zone in the 2nd half was off the right side. He just popped the ball right out of the QB's hands and FSU recovered it on the 1 inch line leading to the easy score. His fourth sack actually came on a stunt as he looped from left end all the way around to the right side and evaded the blocking. Against Wake Forest they had Werner rush from the right side, sometimes from an up position like a linebacker (which Jenkins has done). He drew a bad holding call that way. That's a 10 yard loss, virtually a sack, and I say it was bad because it was clear Werner had beaten the left tackle and was about to sack the quarterback and the lineman knew it so he hooked him and twirled him around like it was dosey do time. On a 3rd & 22 he was about to sack the quarterback from the right side and the passer had to just lob the football up out of there way prematurely.

    Videos courtesy of ME.

    Twitter: @ckparrot
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    Thanks for the vids CK. I forgot that Werner also rushed the passer from a standup position at times.
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