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Thread: Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

  1. -21
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    Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

    Quote Originally Posted by ohall View Post
    We the people do. If we had a real issue with it we would change the law by voting in the people that would change those laws.

    I'm not saying it doesn't look bad, don't get me wrong. And maybe this is an indictment of our system of government. But both sides have this issue they all look like hypocrites when it comes to situations like this.
    We the people???!?!

    Hahhaha I just about fell out of my chair...

    It hasn't been that way in a looooong time.

    If the founders could have foreseen the rise of corporations and their influence on government and public policy, I have no doubt they would have included a provision in the constitution to ban those with conflict of interest investments and ties from obtaining pubic office and influencing public policy. It is a serious flaw with our current system which unfortunately does not appear to have a solution unless "we the people" wake the **** up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    We the people???!?!

    Hahhaha I just about fell out of my chair...

    It hasn't been that way in a looooong time.

    If the founders could have foreseen the rise of corporations and their influence on government and public policy, I have no doubt they would have included a provision in the constitution to ban those with conflict of interest investments and ties from obtaining pubic office and influencing public policy. It is a serious flaw with our current system which unfortunately does not appear to have a solution unless "we the people" wake the **** up.
    All I can tell you is that all the things that you seem to have distain for is what made this country the GREATEST country this world has ever seen.

    If the American ppl really hate that kind of influence in time they will elect the types of politicians that will make that change. As it stands now we are very close to your utopia. Let's see how it turns out.
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    Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

    Quote Originally Posted by ohall View Post
    All I can tell you is that all the things that you seem to have distain for is what made this country the GREATEST country this world has ever seen.

    If the American ppl really hate that kind of influence in time they will elect the types of politicians that will make that change. As it stands now we are very close to your utopia. Let's see how it turns out.
    Wtf are you talking about? You seem to think I am some kind of communist or something.

    I am a huge proponent for small businesses. I think capitalism, though imperfect, is a superior economic system. I am big into the startup scene. I love that someone with a great idea and a little determination can create a business that makes them wealthy and enables them to make a big impact in the lives of others.

    That being said, I support responsible businesses who take an ethical approach to the way they create their products and the way they treat their customers.

    I do not favor corporate entities (who have somehow finagled themselves to be recognized as an individual human) that put profits ahead of human lives and the needs of our planet. There must be balance, and if we don't create that balance, the world will create that balance for us eventually.

    Unfortunately, regulation is a necessary evil because there are businesses out there that would throw their own mother down a polluted river for the sake of increased profits. The health and protection of the public must come first, because all the money in the world don't mean **** without it.

    More government regulation isn't the answer either. I can see how regulation can strangle innovation in some cases. As I said, there needs to be balance.

    Ideally, the consumers would be educated and informed and able to make informed decisions that would bankrupt these corporations that utilize unethical methods to deliver harmful products or services, but we don't live in that world yet, and in part because of the corporate influence on public policy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Wtf are you talking about? You seem to think I am some kind of communist or something.

    I am a huge proponent for small businesses. I think capitalism, though imperfect, is a superior economic system. I am big into the startup scene. I love that someone with a great idea and a little determination can create a business that makes them wealthy and enables them to make a big impact in the lives of others.

    That being said, I support responsible businesses who take an ethical approach to the way they create their products and the way they treat their customers.

    I do not favor corporate entities (who have somehow finagled themselves to be recognized as an individual human) that put profits ahead of human lives and the needs of our planet. There must be balance, and if we don't create that balance, the world will create that balance for us eventually.

    Unfortunately, regulation is a necessary evil because there are businesses out there that would throw their own mother down a polluted river for the sake of increased profits. The health and protection of the public must come first, because all the money in the world don't mean **** without it.

    More government regulation isn't the answer either. I can see how regulation can strangle innovation in some cases. As I said, there needs to be balance.

    Ideally, the consumers would be educated and informed and able to make informed decisions that would bankrupt these corporations that utilize unethical methods to deliver harmful products or services, but we don't live in that world yet, and in part because of the corporate influence on public policy.
    As I said you seem to be against what has made this country the GREATEST country the world has ever seen. Yes ppl helped to make those corporations. Some of you act like there aren't actual ppl that run and work within large corporations.

    In no way am I trying to minimize the backbone of this country which is the small business. But without companies like Ford, GM, GE, Coke etc etc we wouldn't be what we are today. I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of losing corporations like that.

    We are much closer to how you want this country to be. I don't think that is healthy. We'll see how things turn out.
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    Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

    Quote Originally Posted by ohall View Post
    As I said you seem to be against what has made this country the GREATEST country the world has ever seen. Yes ppl helped to make those corporations. Some of you act like there aren't actual ppl that run and work within large corporations.

    In no way am I trying to minimize the backbone of this country which is the small business. But without companies like Ford, GM, GE, Coke etc etc we wouldn't be what we are today. I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of losing corporations like that.

    We are much closer to how you want this country to be. I don't think that is healthy. We'll see how things turn out.
    Listen, there is obviously a place for corporations. I'm not saying I'm against any and all corporations. My main gripe is against corporate entities that put profits before the health and safety of people and the world.

    Businesses should not be able to influence public policy by essentially buying off the policy makers. That's my problem. I don't see how this is a radical position, unless of course you are a stakeholder in the exchange...

    When businesses are able to influence public policy in such a manner, it is a direct affront to "We the People"...

    How can we protect ourselves from poisoned food products when those poisoning our food are running the show? They took "We the People" out of the loop... Or rather, "We the People" ALLOW them to keep us out of the loop.

    I have a question... For someone so against Big Government, why are you so for Big Business? It's not tough to see they go hand in hand and operate in similar ways.

    In most cases, the ones that benefit from Big Government ARE the ones in Big Business who are able to bypass the system with their monetary influence and infiltration of the system.
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    Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

    Another point, this kind of behavior also runs counter to our traditional notions of capitalism. When a business can dictate policy that benefits them or eliminates competition, It no longer allows the market to dictate the success or failure of a business or product.

    Haliburton, for example, is able to get these lucrative contracts in part due to their involvement with political circles, not simply because they are the best producer or service provider. A competitor would have trouble competing with Haliburton for these contracts unless they had more influential policy makers in their side instead...
    Last edited by SkapePhin; 04-10-2013 at 04:21 PM.
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    Pentagon auditors found more than $100 million in questionable costs in one section of a massive, no-bid Halliburton Co. contract for delivering fuel to Iraq, according to a summary of their report released yesterday by congressional Democrats.

    The audit faulted Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root Inc. for providing cost data that did not match its accounting records, and for failing to negotiate lower prices for fuel from a Kuwaiti supplier. The audit also described as "illogical" a case in which KBR reported it had purchased liquefied gas for $82,100, and then spent $27.5 million to transport it.

    Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.), above, pressed the administration to publicize all the audits and to recover contract overcharges. (Alex Wong, Meet The Press--AP)

    The Defense Contract Audit Agency, which produced the audit, had reported in December 2003 that Halliburton may have overcharged the government by up to $61 million by buying more expensive fuel from Kuwait rather than from Turkey.

    The audit summary, written in October 2004 but withheld from public release, covers one out of 10 sections from a $2.5 billion contract under which Halliburton was tapped to deliver fuel, fight oil well fires and repair oil facilities in Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion in the spring of 2003. Of the $2.5 billion, approximately $1.6 billion came from Iraqi oil proceeds and the rest was funded by U.S. taxpayers.

    Halliburton, where Vice President Cheney served as chief executive from 1995 to 2000, has come under persistent criticism for its handling of several Iraqi reconstruction contracts. For example, auditors turned up $1.8 billion in "unsupported costs" in a $10.5 billion Army logistics contract that KBR won on a competitive bid. Despite those findings and a recommendation to withhold some of the payments, the Army decided last month to continue paying Halliburton in full, plus performance bonuses.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Mar14.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Another point, this kind of behavior also runs counter to our traditional notions of capitalism. When a business can dictate policy, It no longer allows the market to dictate the success or failure of a business or product.

    Haliburton, for example, is able to get these lucrative contracts in part due to their involvement with political circles, not simply because they are the best producer or service provider. A competitor would have trouble competing with Haliburton for these contracts unless they had more influential policy makers in their side instead...
    I more than understand what you are talking about, and why you feel as you do. You have every right to. Many corporations have behaved badly, and that's being nice. My frame of mind is that yes those thing happened, but I feel the regulations in place today are a good defense for stopping similar actions happening on mass in the future. In no way am I saying corporations should be left to their own devices, totally, we all know how that would end up, very badly.

    I just feel if we automatically assume the worst of corporations in the long run that will slow down the growth of our economy. And in turn that will weaken the strength of our country. My experience with corporations as a whole have been positive. I would suppose that's why I hold the opinion I hold.

    My view of government is the antithesis of my view of corporations. I usually always assume the worst of the government. My experience with government has rarely been positive.
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    Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

    Quote Originally Posted by ohall View Post
    I more than understand what you are talking about, and why you feel as you do. You have every right to. Many corporations have behaved badly, and that's being nice. My frame of mind is that yes those thing happened, but I feel the regulations in place today are a good defense for stopping similar actions happening on mass in the future. In no way am I saying corporations should be left to their own devices, totally, we all know how that would end up, very badly.

    I just feel if we automatically assume the worst of corporations in the long run that will slow down the growth of our economy. And in turn that will weaken the strength of our country. My experience with corporations as a whole have been positive. I would suppose that's why I hold the opinion I hold.

    My view of government is the antithesis of my view of corporations. I usually always assume the worst of the government. My experience with government has rarely been positive.
    Hey, I live and work in DC... In many cases, the government runs a business about as well as a newborn sloth. It's lethargic and has so much bureaucracy that it cannot feasibly innovate and maneuver as quickly as the private sector.

    I am certainly not in favor of the government taking over operations of industries that the private sector can perform astoundingly better in.

    Unfortunately, regulation is needed in industries that pose a threat to public health and safety. We need some kind of control to stop incidents where incredible profits come at the expense of human lives or health, or at the mercy of a healthy planet.

    I guess I just don't understand why you would oppose conflicts of interest that arise when business people try to entangle themselves with an inefficient, often corrupt behemoth like the government...
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    Dick Cheney on North Korea: ‘We’re in deep doo doo’

    Quote Originally Posted by SkapePhin View Post
    Hey, I live and work in DC... In many cases, the government runs a business about as well as a newborn sloth. It's lethargic and has so much bureaucracy that it cannot feasibly innovate and maneuver as quickly as the private sector.

    I am certainly not in favor of the government taking over operations of industries that the private sector can perform astoundingly better in.

    Unfortunately, regulation is needed in industries that pose a threat to public health and safety. We need some kind of control to stop incidents where incredible profits come at the expense of human lives or health, or at the mercy of a healthy planet.

    I guess I just don't understand why you would oppose conflicts of interest that arise when business people try to entangle themselves with an inefficient, often corrupt behemoth like the government...
    Mainly because both sides are hypocrites, they both have conflicts of interest that the other side can use against each other. We'd basically spend the next five years watching both sides point fingers at each other.

    Where we are as a country right now I just feel we should expect more from our politicians, from both sides. We are in serious trouble with our economy and I'd like to get a resolution to that. I'd hate to see them waste their time basically just throwing mud at each other. Well more mud than usual.

    I'm basically comfortable with the regulations that are currently in place to keep large corporations in check. However like most times I have very little confidence in the politicians to actually enforce those regulations.
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