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Thread: Dion Jordan a red zone threat?+ poll

  1. -11
    finomenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post
    He came to Oregon as a 215 pound wide receiver with intentions of bulking him up at TE. It's something that's been talked about in regards to Dion Jordan in the draft forum here and there for over a year. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see him used in some red zone packages.

    He's a similar athlete to a kid like Eric Ebron, who's the top underclassman TE on my board at the moment should he declare early for the 2014 draft. In short, Ebron is a 6'4", 235 pound kid that's simply too athletic and explosive to keep off the field... even when the team is on defense. Ebron catches passes from the TE position when UNC is on offense, then they'll let him rush the passer as a weakside end on defense.

    You actually see a lot more of this in college football as coaches try to find the best fit for some of these athletic specimens.
    I usually don't read the draft forums much during the season since I don't follow college football closesly. I'll look into it now though. Thanks. For a long time, the NFL influenced college schemes. Recently, it's been going in the reverse in the form of spread offenses. Anything new is met with skepticism. People said the spread was a fad. Time will tell. It is catching on in the NFL though.

    Everyone scratched their heads at the Patriots loading up on tight ends and they rode that system all the way to the Super Bowl. With all the outstanding athleticism on both sides of the ball, I can see the two way player catching on. Not full time two way player since that would be too brutal on the body but in certain situations I could see it happening.
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  2. -12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregorygrant83 View Post
    And how many does Jordan have since high school?
    I think he's making the point that we have no idea who would do better as a TE in the NFL
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    Quote Originally Posted by finomenal View Post
    I usually don't read the draft forums much during the season since I don't follow college football closesly. I'll look into it now though. Thanks. For a long time, the NFL influenced college schemes. Recently, it's been going in the reverse in the form of spread offenses. Anything new is met with skepticism. People said the spread was a fad. Time will tell. It is catching on in the NFL though.

    Everyone scratched their heads at the Patriots loading up on tight ends and they rode that system all the way to the Super Bowl. With all the outstanding athleticism on both sides of the ball, I can see the two way player catching on. Not full time two way player since that would be too brutal on the body but in certain situations I could see it happening.

    Well the NFL has always been lacking in innovation. They take concepts that begin at the high school and collegiate levels and copy 'em... thus why the NFL refers to itself as a "copycat league". There's typically been very little innovation at the NFL level since the league was formed.

    Innovation in football has always been found at the high school and college levels. This is where concepts are born. From the single-wing to the wishbone, to the 3-4 defense, to the Run-&-Shoot, to the spread offenses we see today... it all began in high school or at the college level.

    It's the concepts, or certain elements of the spread that has found its way into the NFL. Not all of the concepts are kept, some are simply scrapped. There are numerous variations of the spread.

    Mike Leach's "Air Raid" version of the spread is the one he learned from Hal Mumme at Kentucky during the Tim Couch days. Leach has made his own tweaks to it (wider splits with the oline, etc.) It is much more short pass oriented. Mumme's version used a lot of mesh concepts to rub linebackers.

    June Jones version of the spread goes back to John Jenkins' Run-&-Shoot at the University of Houston in the early 1990's (David Klingler era, etc.) June Jones has made his own tweaks to that system, mainly operating out of the shotgun rather than under center like the R&S used to. The QB used a 3 step drop that turned into a half rollout.... set up directly behind the offensive tackle.

    It's a lot more difficult to run quick screens and bubble screens to the WR's from under center, which is why they all operate out of the shotgun nowdays. These versions of the spread aren't "spread to run" systems, they're spread to pass. The numerous bubble and smoke screens run nowdays in these systems are nothing more than running plays to these coaches. A bubble screen is essentially a toss sweep out of the backfield. Same concept.

    Art Briles spread at Baylor is another version of this. Except he used extremely wide splits with the WR's, which is designed to stretch a defense horizontally in order to convert zone coverage into man coverage.

    Urban Meyer's version of the spread is more "veer" oriented... or "spread to run". It's much more power based in it's concept. He uses more traditional staples of power running plays (pulling guards, kick outs by the TE or H-back, etc.) It's not a typical 4 WR version of the spread that operates mainly off the 4-verticals concept.

    Gus Malzahn's version of the spread is essentially the same as Meyer's. It's a "spread to run" that uses a lot of power based concepts and heavier personnel packages (having a TE as opposed to another WR on the field).

    Rich Rod's version of the spread is a little bit of both of these. It's more like June Jones and Mike Leach's version of the spread in terms of personnel (4 WR's), but is much more like Urban and Malzahn's in terms of what his bread and butter (spread to run). He uses mostly zone read.

    Steve Spurrier's offense is a spin-off of Mouse Davis' Run-&-Shoot. Spurrier took Davis' offense and made it more balanced. Mouse Davis is considered the founding father of the Run-&-Shoot, and all the concepts of these Air Raid offenses can all be traced back to him.

    Now you have hybrids of the WCO and the spread that has resulted in "the West Coast Spread Offense", which is basically what Mike Sherman runs. It incorporates specific timing routes based off the QB's drop (West Coast) combined with the QB operating mainly out of the shotgun and utilizing the 4-verticals concept (spread) that began with the Run-&-Shoot. The tweaks are found where instead of 4 receivers, you're splitting an athletic mismatch at TE out wide. Basically, it's simply a change in personnel from a 10-personnel package to an 11-personnel package.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post
    Well the NFL has always been lacking in innovation. They take concepts that begin at the high school and collegiate levels and copy 'em... thus why the NFL refers to itself as a "copycat league". There's typically been very little innovation at the NFL level since the league was formed.

    Innovation in football has always been found at the high school and college levels. This is where concepts are born. From the single-wing to the wishbone, to the 3-4 defense, to the Run-&-Shoot, to the spread offenses we see today... it all began in high school or at the college level.

    It's the concepts, or certain elements of the spread that has found its way into the NFL. Not all of the concepts are kept, some are simply scrapped. There are numerous variations of the spread.

    Mike Leach's "Air Raid" version of the spread is the one he learned from Hal Mumme at Kentucky during the Tim Couch days. Leach has made his own tweaks to it (wider splits with the oline, etc.) It is much more short pass oriented. Mumme's version used a lot of mesh concepts to rub linebackers.

    June Jones version of the spread goes back to John Jenkins' Run-&-Shoot at the University of Houston in the early 1990's (David Klingler era, etc.) June Jones has made his own tweaks to that system, mainly operating out of the shotgun rather than under center like the R&S used to. The QB used a 3 step drop that turned into a half rollout.... set up directly behind the offensive tackle.

    It's a lot more difficult to run quick screens and bubble screens to the WR's from under center, which is why they all operate out of the shotgun nowdays. These versions of the spread aren't "spread to run" systems, they're spread to pass. The numerous bubble and smoke screens run nowdays in these systems are nothing more than running plays to these coaches. A bubble screen is essentially a toss sweep out of the backfield. Same concept.

    Art Briles spread at Baylor is another version of this. Except he used extremely wide splits with the WR's, which is designed to stretch a defense horizontally in order to convert zone coverage into man coverage.

    Urban Meyer's version of the spread is more "veer" oriented... or "spread to run". It's much more power based in it's concept. He uses more traditional staples of power running plays (pulling guards, kick outs by the TE or H-back, etc.) It's not a typical 4 WR version of the spread that operates mainly off the 4-verticals concept.

    Gus Malzahn's version of the spread is essentially the same as Meyer's. It's a "spread to run" that uses a lot of power based concepts and heavier personnel packages (having a TE as opposed to another WR on the field).

    Rich Rod's version of the spread is a little bit of both of these. It's more like June Jones and Mike Leach's version of the spread in terms of personnel (4 WR's), but is much more like Urban and Malzahn's in terms of what his bread and butter (spread to run). He uses mostly zone read.

    Steve Spurrier's offense is a spin-off of Mouse Davis' Run-&-Shoot. Spurrier took Davis' offense and made it more balanced. Mouse Davis is considered the founding father of the Run-&-Shoot, and all the concepts of these Air Raid offenses can all be traced back to him.

    Now you have hybrids of the WCO and the spread that has resulted in "the West Coast Spread Offense", which is basically what Mike Sherman runs. It incorporates specific timing routes based off the QB's drop (West Coast) combined with the QB operating mainly out of the shotgun and utilizing the 4-verticals concept (spread) that began with the Run-&-Shoot. The tweaks are found where instead of 4 receivers, you're splitting an athletic mismatch at TE out wide. Basically, it's simply a change in personnel from a 10-personnel package to an 11-personnel package.
    Great post. You are correct on so many levels. Hal Mumme I had forgotten all about him. To think they used to sling it in Kentucky. They still werent very good, but they put up some impressive offensive totals.

    And while you are definately correct that most innovative schemes come from the HS and college ranks, it isnt really fair to say there havent been things that have had great impact on the game that started in the NFL. If you limit the discussion to systems and schematic things then sure, HS and college is where they are born, tinkered with, and perfected to become part of the game. But, many different types of innovations and strategies that change the way the game is played are started on the NFL level.

    Also, the toss sweep kicks much ass. I miss seeing that play so often. I hate bubble screens tbh. I dont want to watch some scrawny WR catch an easy pass that gets chalked up as passing yardage for a QB and break into the open field while the big guys do all of the work. Cheap stat yardage there for the QB and cheap Reception for the WR. There is nothing like a monster tailback catching a toss at full stride and HAMMERING around the corner. Many a LB and S were punished when the line blocked that play well enough to get the back to the 2nd level.
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  5. -15
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVDolphan View Post
    Great post. You are correct on so many levels. Hal Mumme I had forgotten all about him. To think they used to sling it in Kentucky. They still werent very good, but they put up some impressive offensive totals.

    And while you are definately correct that most innovative schemes come from the HS and college ranks, it isnt really fair to say there havent been things that have had great impact on the game that started in the NFL. If you limit the discussion to systems and schematic things then sure, HS and college is where they are born, tinkered with, and perfected to become part of the game. But, many different types of innovations and strategies that change the way the game is played are started on the NFL level.

    Also, the toss sweep kicks much ass. I miss seeing that play so often. I hate bubble screens tbh. I dont want to watch some scrawny WR catch an easy pass that gets chalked up as passing yardage for a QB and break into the open field while the big guys do all of the work. Cheap stat yardage there for the QB and cheap Reception for the WR. There is nothing like a monster tailback catching a toss at full stride and HAMMERING around the corner. Many a LB and S were punished when the line blocked that play well enough to get the back to the 2nd level.

    Toss sweep kicks ass if you have the talent to run it. Problem you run into if you're a coach trying to win games in college football is that it doesn't matter what you'd rather see..... it matters what your team can execute. Offenses have to be able to get cheap yards. It's how they go about it that differs.

    If you're not a program that's able to recruit the better RB's and offensive lineman out there, you're wasting time trying to run sweeps against the better teams on your schedule in order to attack the perimeter of the defense. You'll notice that the programs that are able to recruit elite RB's and offensive lineman, and have always been able to, don't run spread offenses because they don't need to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post
    Toss sweep kicks ass if you have the talent to run it. Problem you run into if you're a coach trying to win games in college football is that it doesn't matter what you'd rather see..... it matters what your team can execute. Offenses have to be able to get cheap yards. It's how they go about it that differs.

    If you're not a program that's able to recruit the better RB's and offensive lineman out there, you're wasting time trying to run sweeps against the better teams on your schedule in order to attack the perimeter of the defense. You'll notice that the programs that are able to recruit elite RB's and offensive lineman, and have always been able to, don't run spread offenses because they don't need to.
    So basically you mean Alabama and a few other SEC schools.
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  7. -17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post
    Well the NFL has always been lacking in innovation. They take concepts that begin at the high school and collegiate levels and copy 'em... thus why the NFL refers to itself as a "copycat league". There's typically been very little innovation at the NFL level since the league was formed.

    Innovation in football has always been found at the high school and college levels. This is where concepts are born. From the single-wing to the wishbone, to the 3-4 defense, to the Run-&-Shoot, to the spread offenses we see today... it all began in high school or at the college level.

    It's the concepts, or certain elements of the spread that has found its way into the NFL. Not all of the concepts are kept, some are simply scrapped. There are numerous variations of the spread.

    Mike Leach's "Air Raid" version of the spread is the one he learned from Hal Mumme at Kentucky during the Tim Couch days. Leach has made his own tweaks to it (wider splits with the oline, etc.) It is much more short pass oriented. Mumme's version used a lot of mesh concepts to rub linebackers.

    June Jones version of the spread goes back to John Jenkins' Run-&-Shoot at the University of Houston in the early 1990's (David Klingler era, etc.) June Jones has made his own tweaks to that system, mainly operating out of the shotgun rather than under center like the R&S used to. The QB used a 3 step drop that turned into a half rollout.... set up directly behind the offensive tackle.

    It's a lot more difficult to run quick screens and bubble screens to the WR's from under center, which is why they all operate out of the shotgun nowdays. These versions of the spread aren't "spread to run" systems, they're spread to pass. The numerous bubble and smoke screens run nowdays in these systems are nothing more than running plays to these coaches. A bubble screen is essentially a toss sweep out of the backfield. Same concept.

    Art Briles spread at Baylor is another version of this. Except he used extremely wide splits with the WR's, which is designed to stretch a defense horizontally in order to convert zone coverage into man coverage.

    Urban Meyer's version of the spread is more "veer" oriented... or "spread to run". It's much more power based in it's concept. He uses more traditional staples of power running plays (pulling guards, kick outs by the TE or H-back, etc.) It's not a typical 4 WR version of the spread that operates mainly off the 4-verticals concept.

    Gus Malzahn's version of the spread is essentially the same as Meyer's. It's a "spread to run" that uses a lot of power based concepts and heavier personnel packages (having a TE as opposed to another WR on the field).

    Rich Rod's version of the spread is a little bit of both of these. It's more like June Jones and Mike Leach's version of the spread in terms of personnel (4 WR's), but is much more like Urban and Malzahn's in terms of what his bread and butter (spread to run). He uses mostly zone read.

    Steve Spurrier's offense is a spin-off of Mouse Davis' Run-&-Shoot. Spurrier took Davis' offense and made it more balanced. Mouse Davis is considered the founding father of the Run-&-Shoot, and all the concepts of these Air Raid offenses can all be traced back to him.

    Now you have hybrids of the WCO and the spread that has resulted in "the West Coast Spread Offense", which is basically what Mike Sherman runs. It incorporates specific timing routes based off the QB's drop (West Coast) combined with the QB operating mainly out of the shotgun and utilizing the 4-verticals concept (spread) that began with the Run-&-Shoot. The tweaks are found where instead of 4 receivers, you're splitting an athletic mismatch at TE out wide. Basically, it's simply a change in personnel from a 10-personnel package to an 11-personnel package.
    Not a correction, but a question:

    Bill Walsh takes credit for creating the WC offense in Cincinnati - where he had a weak-armed QB (after their starter was injured) and no running game, so he had to find an innovative way to move the ball. Before it became a flourishing offense, it was a means of survival (again, according to Walsh). To your understanding, is his account true, or did he get large chunks from the college game?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penthos View Post
    Why can't he just be a DE? Why do so many people insist on turning him into Jim Jenson? He's a DE people, MAYBE on occasional 3-4 linebacker. If you really need to play your DE at TE, then you have a problem at TE.
    His ideal position in the NFL is clearly a 3-4 OLB. Clearly. In Miami, they're best served using him as a SOLB in the 4-3 on base downs and bringing him down to rush the passer on nickel and dime situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by j-off-her-doll View Post
    Not a correction, but a question:

    Bill Walsh takes credit for creating the WC offense in Cincinnati - where he had a weak-armed QB (after their starter was injured) and no running game, so he had to find an innovative way to move the ball. Before it became a flourishing offense, it was a means of survival (again, according to Walsh). To your understanding, is his account true, or did he get large chunks from the college game?

    Walsh was one of the few true innovators that the NFL has had. However, most of the concepts that Walsh took and modified originated with Lavell Edwards in the early 70's at BYU. You have to keep in mind that Walsh's roots were actually based in the Air Coryell vertical passing attack of the old AFL under his mentor Sid Gillman.

    One of the main purposes of the spread is to achieve exactly what it's name implies. It's primary goal is to spread the defense horizontally and make the defense defend the entire field. This was the primary objective of the West Coast Offense to begin with.... long before the spread innovated from the WCO. Taking what the defense gives you was Walsh's main goal, specifically in the means of survival as you pointed out according to Walsh. The numerous bubble screens now that are a staple of the spread is the modified version of taking what the defense gives you.
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  10. -20
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    Quote Originally Posted by j-off-her-doll View Post
    His ideal position in the NFL is clearly a 3-4 OLB. Clearly. In Miami, they're best served using him as a SOLB in the 4-3 on base downs and bringing him down to rush the passer on nickel and dime situations.
    Clearly? I don't think its as clear as you seem to think it is. What is CLEAR is that we need another pass rushing DE to get the double teams off Wake and get more pressure on opposing QBs. Low and behold, we move up to draft a DE.
    Last edited by Penthos; 05-07-2013 at 08:36 AM.
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