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Thread: Whoa! Dion Simms compared to Anthony Gates !!!

  1. -41
    NY8123's Avatar
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    "I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally" ~ W.C. Fields

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spesh View Post
    Sorry everyone, i have it on good authority that Egnew is tearing it up. Just destroying the field. Our defense whimpers at the sight of him.

    Thus, there doesnt seem to be a spot for Simms. Looks like another team will get the next Gates.
    Egnew may very well be coming into his own, but that doesn't mean there is no place for Sims. Egnew is a pass-catching TE, a seam buster type not a very good blocker. Keller is a seam busting type TE as well. We need to have that guy that can block in the 2 TE situations, goal line 'jumbo' formations, etc. This guy got drafted because he can block, not because he is an Egnew or Keller type player...

    It'll be interesting to see this work out...The thing is, Keller and Egnew are capable of 4.5 - 4.6 type speed which is great, but I don't see Sims anywhere near that speed...
    '
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  3. -43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFinFan View Post
    Egnew may very well be coming into his own, but that doesn't mean there is no place for Sims. Egnew is a pass-catching TE, a seam buster type not a very good blocker. Keller is a seam busting type TE as well. We need to have that guy that can block in the 2 TE situations, goal line 'jumbo' formations, etc. This guy got drafted because he can block, not because he is an Egnew or Keller type player...

    It'll be interesting to see this work out...The thing is, Keller and Egnew are capable of 4.5 - 4.6 type speed which is great, but I don't see Sims anywhere near that speed...
    '
    I think you missed the (misplaced) sarcasm in Spesh's post.
    Twitter: @ckparrot
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  4. -44
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXwarXx View Post
    What makes ya think they liked don jones for so long? I really don't know much about the guy besides his measureables.

    And I actually think sims will be a pretty good receivng threat. Reminds me of a Kevin Boss before the injuries. I'm not one of those of people who believe a TE needs to he crazy athletic to be effective receiving. Guys like boss are naturally wide, and have natural hands, can catch the ball from multiple angles. I think that's something that sims really excels at.

    Even watching Tony Gonzalez this past season, he didn't get any separation ever. Didn't break tackles, didn't juke anyone, and looked quite slower than his younger self.

    But he produced as one of the top receiving TEs in the NFL, just because he has great hands, runs clean routes, and john beck knew where to put the ball. big guys, with really good hands, are really hard to stop, no matter how tightly covered.
    Tight ends don't need crazy measurables to be effective in the passing game and that wasn't my point. If it looked like my point then I miscommunicated.

    My point was that the player I saw on tape at 280 to 285 lbs was not quick, agile, fast or explosive enough to be a consistent pass catching threat. I believe I even said the words "on tape" before. But this naturally begs the question, yeah but what about a 260 to 265 lbs Dion Sims? What will HE look like on tape? That's what I was saying I don't know. I'm not sure anyone does. So I brought up the Combine because some of the test results there suggest that the 260 to 265 lbs version of Dion Sims will not look significantly different on tape than the 280 to 285 lbs version. Or at least, not significantly enough different to outweigh what he is likely giving up by dropping that 20 lbs.

    I hope that's more clear.

    As for some of your other points, I don't know that I agree about how Tony Gonzalez looked. His ability to move, create separation, his ability to leap for the ball and his body control all still looked very good to me. Gonzalez has never looked particularly good after the catch, he's just not been that kind of tight end in his career. But his ability to run the route and create separation was still there, and of course he has tremendous hands. Dion Sims has good hands. But I don't think he has Tony's body control to where he can finish the same plays Tony does. And I don't think he creates separation like Tony.

    Kevin Boss would be a lot better comparison than Tony Gonzalez, though even the Boss comparison falls a little short. But Boss' production has been short lived. He basically produced over a three-season stretch with the Giants from 2008 to 2010 (110 catches, 1487 yards, 16 TDs) and has fallen off the map since. Very Fasano-like production from him. But the thing is, he did it under a tight ends coach that is regarded by many as the best in football. The Giants believe in the coach so heavily it actually affects their personnel strategy and they under-invest in the position knowing they'll get good production anyway. Having Eli Manning certainly helps. Jeremy Shockey was a fine tight end, but he wasn't the same when he went to New Orleans as he was under Michael Pope. Pope turned Kevin Boss into a producer, and Boss went on to fall off the face of the earth post-Giants. He turned Jake Ballard into a top producer at the position in 2011. He turned Martellus Bennett into a top producer at the position in 2012. Now they took Brandon Myers from the Raiders and I have no doubt he'll turn Myers into not just a guy that produces during garbage time anymore.

    Oh and about Don Jones, there were some notes on their interest in him months before the draft from the local beat writers, but in addition to that I heard some things privately. If you track those games that some posters play where they name 20 guys and see who will end up with the most players that end up actually drafted by the Dolphins, I think Don Jones was probably the most popular one to be nailed. The Dolphins weren't very secretive about their liking him.
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  5. -45
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    I get what your saying about the weight. But I honestly don't take combine weight that serious. Way to much training goes into combines to take any of it as a mainstay stat. I expect him closer to 270 - 275. Its like a body builder who cuts in the summer, sure there ripped for a few months, but eventually the natural body weight will come back on. IMO Dion is just a heavy set guy.

    And I wasn't comparing dion to Tony I was just pointing at that, TEs, really don't need the separation, speed, YAC ability, to NE effective. I also agree Tony has better body control. But dion is no slouch in that category either. He's another ball player who seems to have that sneaky agileness when it comes to getting the ball. Dion makes a lot of fancy catches, seems to really be able to turn his hips over and rnd the ball quickly.

    As for the Kevin fall off, he was injured and he was signed to bad teams. That explains a lot of it, while I completely agree with you that Gmen are the best TE produces in the NFL. I personally think dion will be very productive for us blocking and receiving.

    I'm not expecting a top 5 TE in yards or TDs, but I expect a 3 down TE who is going to be much more productive right out the gate and for at least a few years than a lot of others seem to think. Quite frankly these naturally massive TEs don't seem to have the longevity most other solid TEs do, but well see.

    And didn't know that about don jones, I guess they see a worthy project in him?
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  6. -46
    littlemarino's Avatar
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    Heith Miller type would be good enough for me.
    Just beat those Stinking JETS
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  7. -47
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXwarXx View Post
    I get what your saying about the weight. But I honestly don't take combine weight that serious. Way to much training goes into combines to take any of it as a mainstay stat. I expect him closer to 270 - 275. Its like a body builder who cuts in the summer, sure there ripped for a few months, but eventually the natural body weight will come back on. IMO Dion is just a heavy set guy.
    And again I say, the 280 to 285 lbs Dion Sims did not look like he could be a significant pass catching threat in the NFL, on tape.

    And I wasn't comparing dion to Tony I was just pointing at that, TEs, really don't need the separation, speed, YAC ability, to NE effective. I also agree Tony has better body control. But dion is no slouch in that category either. He's another ball player who seems to have that sneaky agileness when it comes to getting the ball. Dion makes a lot of fancy catches, seems to really be able to turn his hips over and rnd the ball quickly.

    As for the Kevin fall off, he was injured and he was signed to bad teams. That explains a lot of it, while I completely agree with you that Gmen are the best TE produces in the NFL. I personally think dion will be very productive for us blocking and receiving.

    I'm not expecting a top 5 TE in yards or TDs, but I expect a 3 down TE who is going to be much more productive right out the gate and for at least a few years than a lot of others seem to think. Quite frankly these naturally massive TEs don't seem to have the longevity most other solid TEs do, but well see.

    And didn't know that about don jones, I guess they see a worthy project in him?
    In the passing game I think Sims is "just a guy".
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  8. -48
    Spesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CANDolphan View Post
    Rolling my eyes here. What's your point? unique snowflake?
    That if you declare every single player on the roster a playmaker with hall of fame potential, then your actually declaring very few players are playmakers. That all the boasts, promises, and delusions of epic glory are self-defeating.
    Even teams with depth and talent have players that get ignored. There are only so many plays that can be run, especially if players are scoring as often as people believe we will.

    Personally, i believe we got decent players for a decent price. I dont believe every single move was a frigging steal that the rest of the league will rue for years to come(!1!!1!). No doubt that appears like a minority opinion...thats because it is. Im one of those strange few who hasnt accepted losing and doesnt believe every move we have made is the greatest steal in NFL history simply because it has the words "Miami Dolphins" associated with it. Clearly you find that disturbing. Not to worry, there are plenty of others willing to give you the material you want to read. Id recommend enjoying it while it lasts though, as the Finheaven pattern will come full circle when the season begins and our homers will turn on their fellow fans for not being "real Dolfans" in an attempt to explain why the team is struggling.

    Now if youll excuse me, i must go check Fisi's other thought provoking thread about how great Armon Binns is.
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  9. -49
    Digital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    I think what happened in this draft is that Jeff Ireland (a notorious and self admitted need picker) made a daring trade up to get the g they felt was the best defensive player in the draft and also happened to play a position of need. But once they did that it became that much more important that they notch players at the positions of need they had flagged heading into the draft, and so what happened after the Jordan pick was an almost pure example of need picking. He admitted that they reason they traded back up into the 3rd round was because they feared the run on corners had begun when Kayvon Webster and Logan Ryan went off. So Will Davis was an admitted need pick, even AFTER Jamar Taylor was picked. This implies that Taylor himself was a need pick. They lost Fasano and had only Keller, Clay and Egnew, none of whom could be trusted to block. There were four tight ends this draft who were accomplished blockers. Among them, Michael Williams I have pegged for needing to switch to tackle to survive in the NFL. Levine Toilolo MAY also need to because his hands are made of stone (a pet peeve of Philbin's). So with Travis Kelce off the board before they had even picked Dallas Thomas (another strong need as they had no intention of having to live 16 games with John Jerry last year, but ended up having to because of unfavorable circumstances) or Will Davis, they had to target Dion Sims.

    Mike Gillislee was clearly a need as well, because they needed competition for the 3rd down back role as they know Daniel Thomas is on his way to busthood. Gillislee can block. He doesn't even necessarily show great instincts for their particular scheme, but he can block. And of course, after losing games because of Dan Carpenter's kicking while simultaneously paying him about $2 or 3 million a year, they pegged kicker as a need and took one high so they could be assured of him.

    Only guys they took after Jordan that to me were not reaches for needs, were Jelani Jenkins and Don Jones. Jones was a guy they had clearly pegged some time ago as a player they just love and had to come away with. Jenkins may have been a need but it's hard to discern it at the moment. Their linebacker depth was certainly woeful but I don't expect them to admit that after having given Jason Trusnik a fresh three year contract.
    I agree with almost all of that. To me, Taylor was a value pick and a need pick though, so I can't really fault him there. I would have preferred to move differently and taken Eifert + Caradine instead of Jordan, but Ireland believes he can be the next Jason Taylor, and if he's right it was a steal. I can't really fault him for taking a chance on greatness. But, that's the top 3 picks used solely for defense. We had lots of chances to take value at the WR and TE positions that we simply chose not to take, and we need both positions. We had a shot at a legitimate top echelon LT, and we didn't take that one either.

    Following Ireland's philosophy to it's logical conclusion, we will never have a great TE and are unlikely to ever have an elite receiving corps. Given that Philbin's entire coaching system is oriented around a high-octane passing attack, that strikes me as the wrong way to build. Sure, Ireland spent big in free agency for a top notch WR, and he deserves full credit for it. But, will he ever find a TE? Look around the league, there aren't many guys starring at TE who were low round draft picks. Ireland new of Jimmy Graham and rated him highly, he was so insistent on grabbing him in the late rounds that he didn't get him at all, and that's probably a best case scenario because he was all athlete and very raw as a football player at that point. We had a shot at Gronkowski in round 2, but were so scared of his injury history (a valid concern proved correct) that we selected the impact player known as Koa Misi. Yet, we spend lots of late draft picks on WR's who don't have the speed or quickness, and we take fliers on every tall reject with speed, eternally hoping to find an acorn.

    Ireland is playing Money Ball with our roster. He should be building a Super Bowl contending roster rather than always trying to keep costs down and minimize risk. That's why I'm OK with him taking a chance on Jordan ... because Ireland is finally taking a chance on greatness. IMHO, we're not going to become Super Bowl contenders by playing it safe. We need some great players mixed in there too.
    "I want guys who want to make an impact on and off the field. Good human beings. Guys who want to get better. Guys who want to improve. They want to be great, want to win. Those types of guys we can work with every day." --Joe Philbin
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