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Thread: Egyptian military overthrows government, suspends constitution

  1. -11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    They aren't relevant to the situation. "Muslim Brotherhood" is as much of a threat to us as Swine Flu was. The media uses them as a fear tactic. It's working like a charm. You've got the guy in this thread worried about an election that is about as relevant to us as Australia's TV schedule, yet here he is scared to death of the big scary brotherhood that's going to bring down the western way of life. It's beyond ridiculous at this point...
    Well actually this election is relevant to us. Egypt shares a border with Israel who we are strong allies with. Egypt elects a President who calls Israelis the descendants of swines and apes. Israel has a no nonsense approach to their security, anything deemed even remotely threatening they are ready to bomb. If a conflict begins we are roped into it to try and stop it.

    I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to destroy the west and I have never said that. I just think Egypt is in turmoil now, they are looking at their third different government in 2 years. Egypt used to be one of the most stable countries in the region, given Mubarak was a brutal dictator but we knew what to expect from them in regards to Israel. Mubarak was going to uphold the peace treaty. There is an old FDR line "he may be a SOB, but he's our SOB". Now going forward we have no idea what to expect. Instability is never a good thing especially in regards to a region with as much violence as the Middle East.

    Many people want us to pull out all interests in the Middle East and to stop fighting what is ultimately a losing battle. However, as long as there is an Israel we are going to have an interest in the security of that region.
    Last edited by mrhankey81701; 07-04-2013 at 12:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhankey81701 View Post
    Well actually this election is relevant to us. Egypt shares a border with Israel who we are strong allies with. Egypt elects a President who calls Israelis the descendants of swines and pigs. Israel has a no nonsense approach to their security, anything deemed even remotely threatening they are ready to bomb. If a conflict begins we are roped into it to try and stop it.

    I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to destroy the west and I have never said that. I just think Egypt is in turmoil now, they are looking at their third different government in 2 years. Egypt used to be one of the most stable countries in the region, given Mubarak was a brutal dictator but we knew what to expect from them in regards to Israel. Mubarak was going to uphold the peace treaty. There is an old FDR line "he may be a SOB, but he's our SOB". Now going forward we have no idea what to expect. Instability is never a good thing especially in regards to a region with as much violence as the Middle East.

    Many people want us to pull out all interests in the Middle East and to stop fighting what is ultimately a losing battle. However, as long as there is an Israel we are going to have an interest in the security of that region.
    Let me give you a pointer when talking to libs. Never mention Israel in a positive manner.
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    I hope Egypt gets it together for their peoples' sake. That country largely depends on tourism for income (for good reason) and all this turmoil is hurting their tourism business. I'd love to visit Egypt one day but right now I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot poll.

    Another reason to care about Egypt, besides the affect on Israel, is the fact that Egypt is a middle eastern country. Any turmoil in a middle eastern country affects oil prices, whether that particular country is an oil producer or not.

    There's not much reason to be scared of the Muslim Brotherhood. If they were this inept when elected to office, then I doubt they could organize it to much of a global threat. They barely understood democracy. They thought they could just promise whatever they wanted to the people and then did whatever they wanted (usually the complete opposite of their promise) once they got into office. It's a good thing something like that would never happen in this country...
    Insert pithy saying here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhankey81701 View Post
    Well actually this election is relevant to us. Egypt shares a border with Israel who we are strong allies with. Egypt elects a President who calls Israelis the descendants of swines and apes. Israel has a no nonsense approach to their security, anything deemed even remotely threatening they are ready to bomb. If a conflict begins we are roped into it to try and stop it.

    I don't think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to destroy the west and I have never said that. I just think Egypt is in turmoil now, they are looking at their third different government in 2 years. Egypt used to be one of the most stable countries in the region, given Mubarak was a brutal dictator but we knew what to expect from them in regards to Israel. Mubarak was going to uphold the peace treaty. There is an old FDR line "he may be a SOB, but he's our SOB". Now going forward we have no idea what to expect. Instability is never a good thing especially in regards to a region with as much violence as the Middle East.

    Many people want us to pull out all interests in the Middle East and to stop fighting what is ultimately a losing battle. However, as long as there is an Israel we are going to have an interest in the security of that region.
    So your concern is Israel? It blows my mind that people are so concerned with a country that offers the U.S. absolutely nothing in this partnership. Israel can take care of itself. If we spent less time worrying about them and more time worrying about ourselves, maybe we wouldn't have bridges collapsing in Oregon, people still homeless from Hurricane Sandy, and dozens of tent cities across the country.

    And nothing you said has convinced me that there is anything to worry about with the Muslim Brotherhood. I like how you all always claim not to listen to Fox News or AM Talk radio, yet always manage to bring their conspiracy theories and fear mongering into the conversation...

    If I could take your pain and frame it, and hang it on my wall,
    maybe you would never have to hurt again...

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    State Dept has a travel restriction John. Sucks because we are leaving Europe before next summer and it's looking like it won't be lifted before we go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    So your concern is Israel? It blows my mind that people are so concerned with a country that offers the U.S. absolutely nothing in this partnership. Israel can take care of itself. If we spent less time worrying about them and more time worrying about ourselves, maybe we wouldn't have bridges collapsing in Oregon, people still homeless from Hurricane Sandy, and dozens of tent cities across the country.

    And nothing you said has convinced me that there is anything to worry about with the Muslim Brotherhood. I like how you all always claim not to listen to Fox News or AM Talk radio, yet always manage to bring their conspiracy theories and fear mongering into the conversation...
    You have to give conservatives a bit of a mulligan on this subject, its full of contradictions they have to sort out before taking a position and possibly enraging their fellow partisans.
    I mean, on one hand part of the reason why people were rioting was due to the rise in crime. But part of that crime was sexual assaults and conservatives have no way of knowing which of those were "legitimate". Egypt just hasnt adopted the small government regulations for that sort of thing.

    Then it must be about Israel. Why? 'Cause nukes. Or something. But regional stability is vastly important and a new administration could threaten that by pressuring the military...a military we help pay for...a military that just replaced the entire government...but anyways...ugh, yeah.

    Well, at least we can all agree that spreading democracy is important. Conservatives felt very strongly about that. Spread democracy no matter how messy it can get. Oh wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by mrhankey81701 View Post
    Mubarak was going to uphold the peace treaty. There is an old FDR line "he may be a SOB, but he's our SOB". Now going forward we have no idea what to expect.
    I forgot, the only time democracy is welcome is when its achieved with the muzzle flash of an American rifle. Give them time, they'll figure out how they feel about this. Unless its casts Obama in a positive manner. Then anyone who feels that way is a RINO and deserving of seething hatred.
    "I'm not here to be a distraction," Pouncey said.
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    sounds like someone just cut out the middle man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locke View Post
    So your concern is Israel? It blows my mind that people are so concerned with a country that offers the U.S. absolutely nothing in this partnership. Israel can take care of itself. If we spent less time worrying about them and more time worrying about ourselves, maybe we wouldn't have bridges collapsing in Oregon, people still homeless from Hurricane Sandy, and dozens of tent cities across the country.

    And nothing you said has convinced me that there is anything to worry about with the Muslim Brotherhood. I like how you all always claim not to listen to Fox News or AM Talk radio, yet always manage to bring their conspiracy theories and fear mongering into the conversation...
    Israel offers us plenty. Intelligence, tactical support, a market for goods, services and weapons, and a friend in a hostile region. It costs us something, sure, and I hardly agree with everything Israel does, but making friends with people who want the death of Israel isn't a big priority with me. I can't imagine why it's a priority with anyone in this country, except as an excuse to wash your hands of a situation because it's a bit sticky and complicated. That's weak sauce, to me.

    And anyway, even if they offered us nothing, I'd still argue the civilized world owes the Jewish people one for what they've gone through, not just in the 1930s and 40s but for centuries of oppression and brutalization. My support goes to them just as it will go to the Kurds when the time comes for northern Iraq to break off and enjoy not just de-facto autonomy as Kurdistan but actual autonomy. Just as it will go to the Cypriots when it comes time to kick the Turks out of Cyprus.

    In any case, it's not like pulling back from Israel would solve our problems, unless we suddenly don't care if Israel wipes out Iran's nuclear program and instigates a wide-spread war in the Middle East they would almost surely win, especially initially. We're involved whether we like it or not, as a fact of our station in the world.
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    Israel offers us plenty. Intelligence, tactical support, a market for goods, services and weapons, and a friend in a hostile region. It costs us something, sure, and I hardly agree with everything Israel does, but making friends with people who want the death of Israel isn't a big priority with me. I can't imagine why it's a priority with anyone in this country, except as an excuse to wash your hands of a situation because it's a bit sticky and complicated. That's weak sauce, to me.

    And anyway, even if they offered us nothing, I'd still argue the civilized world owes the Jewish people one for what they've gone through, not just in the 1930s and 40s but for centuries of oppression and brutalization. My support goes to them just as it will go to the Kurds when the time comes for northern Iraq to break off and enjoy not just de-facto autonomy as Kurdistan but actual autonomy. Just as it will go to the Cypriots when it comes time to kick the Turks out of Cyprus.

    In any case, it's not like pulling back from Israel would solve our problems, unless we suddenly don't care if Israel wipes out Iran's nuclear program and instigates a wide-spread war in the Middle East they would almost surely win, especially initially. We're involved whether we like it or not, as a fact of our station in the world.
    I dont disagree with your post, nor am i suggesting that you suggested the following, but: some of us are a bit exhausted by the partisan hackery that unless you support everything Israel then you want them destroyed. That there can be no disagreements or bumps in relations. That if an entirely different country hosts their own election, then it means the death of civilization in the region.

    Its the same tired "logic" that ran rampant years ago when "You cant question a President in a time of war or you hate America!". Unadulterated character assassination. That it comes from those that are so obsessed with American exceptionalism makes it all that much more hilarious. That those individuals are also convinced, to their core, that the "liberal media" is suggesting that "unless you support Obama then you hate black people" even though they cant dig up a single example of that even being hinted at raises that hilarity all the more.

    Our partnership with Israel is going nowhere. If they ever come under attack we will be there in minutes with support(yes Langer, even the atheists in the military will fight for Israel!). If they attack another country, its inconceivable that we wouldnt be involved in some capacity. And if another country elects their own President, Israel will be fine. They are a ****ing nuclear power. Id say its absurd that people could even attempt to fear monger when it comes to a country defended by nukes, but then again some are convinced America is 2 minutes away from being invaded unless we jack up military spending(while lowering taxes of course).

    The fact that we are talking about Israel relations in a thread about Egypt's government being overthrown just proves all of the above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spesh View Post
    I dont disagree with your post, nor am i suggesting that you suggested the following, but: some of us are a bit exhausted by the partisan hackery that unless you support everything Israel then you want them destroyed. That there can be no disagreements or bumps in relations. That if an entirely different country hosts their own election, then it means the death of civilization in the region.

    Its the same tired "logic" that ran rampant years ago when "You cant question a President in a time of war or you hate America!". Unadulterated character assassination. That it comes from those that are so obsessed with American exceptionalism makes it all that much more hilarious. That those individuals are also convinced, to their core, that the "liberal media" is suggesting that "unless you support Obama then you hate black people" even though they cant dig up a single example of that even being hinted at raises that hilarity all the more.

    Our partnership with Israel is going nowhere. If they ever come under attack we will be there in minutes with support(yes Langer, even the atheists in the military will fight for Israel!). If they attack another country, its inconceivable that we wouldnt be involved in some capacity. And if another country elects their own President, Israel will be fine. They are a ****ing nuclear power. Id say its absurd that people could even attempt to fear monger when it comes to a country defended by nukes, but then again some are convinced America is 2 minutes away from being invaded unless we jack up military spending(while lowering taxes of course).

    The fact that we are talking about Israel relations in a thread about Egypt's government being overthrown just proves all of the above.
    I agree with your annoyance over this point. There is very little but shades of gray in any serious discussion about the Middle East, and anyone who argues it in black and white terms is missing, well... pretty much everything. And in my opinion it's going to get worse between the US and Israel before it gets better.

    Israel's threats have always been existential -- trying merely to survive attacks and threats -- but the nature of that threat is changing. Despite what hawks like Netanyahu want you to believe, Israel's chief existential threat going forward is not Iran, or Syria, or Hezbollah or the Muslim Brotherhood.

    It's internal, in the fact that Israel -- according to it's constitution -- MUST be a Jewish state and a democracy. No problem, except the Arab population in Israel is growing twice as fast as the national average.

    If you look at current trends, it's going to shape the state construct, says Monica Toft, an associate professor of public policy at Harvard, noting that fertility rates and migrant patterns are likely to change over time. One is a domestic political situation, and the other is the international regional dimension. They can both be existential threats.

    Currently, Arabs make up a quarter of Israels population. Palestinians in the territories are not legally deemed Israeli citizens, and Arabs in Israel proper face various forms of institutional and social discrimination.
    http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/featur...ographics_6137

    In other words, Israel is faced with becoming aparthied South Africa. As that piece suggests, the only solution would seem to be in splitting off the parts of the country where Arabs are a majority. But where does it end? Can that fix the problem or does it merely delay it? The crown jewel is and always has been Jerusalem. What happens if the Jews become a minority there also? Or more to the point, what happens when they're a minority yet still rule, denying rights and suppressing any move toward a truly democratic process?
    Last edited by TheWalrus; 07-04-2013 at 05:17 PM.
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