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Thread: Beating the Patriots (notes and observations)

  1. -41
    hooshoops's Avatar
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    our offense runs thru hartline??? i'd like an explanation into that one...wallace is the focal point and clay the biggest benefactor no doubt but runs thru hartline...struggling with that
    hoops scoops 2012 season ..."in 2014 ryan tannehill etches his name in stone amongst the games elite qbs"..."ryan tannehill and andrew luck will carry the afc for the next decade plus the way peyton manning and tom brady have this last decade plus"
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooshoops View Post
    our offense runs thru hartline??? i'd like an explanation into that one...wallace is the focal point and clay the biggest benefactor no doubt but runs thru hartline...struggling with that
    Well, surely you don't think it runs through the running game. This is a passing team. And surely you don't think it runs through Wallace, who is functionally a decoy based not only on his lack of chemistry with Tannehill but on our offensive line's inability to protect long enough to throw the ball deep regularly.

    Hartline is who Tannehill looks to when he's in trouble. He's who he looks to on third down. He's the focus of the passing game. And, as I said, the passing game is the focus of the offense.

    Now, what perhaps you thought I meant was that Tannehill himself wasn't the focus of the offense. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that that Hartline is the focus of the offense the same way that prior to this year, Wes Welker was the focus of the Patriots' offense. That wouldn't have taken anything away from Brady. He goes without saying.
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  3. -43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    Well, surely you don't think it runs through the running game. This is a passing team. And surely you don't think it runs through Wallace, who is functionally a decoy based not only on his lack of chemistry with Tannehill but on our offensive line's inability to protect long enough to throw the ball deep regularly.

    Hartline is who Tannehill looks to when he's in trouble. He's who he looks to on third down. He's the focus of the passing game. And, as I said, the passing game is the focus of the offense.

    Now, what perhaps you thought I meant was that Tannehill himself wasn't the focus of the offense. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that that Hartline is the focus of the offense the same way that prior to this year, Wes Welker was the focus of the Patriots' offense. That wouldn't have taken anything away from Brady. He was a given.
    i see it more as hartline being tannehills security blanket...he's the to the sticks wr who runs solid routes but also the primary bait one cause there is a heavy tendency for his routes to be run to the sticks...allowing for bait plays when the down and distance dictates it...and he's not a wr that you have to worry about creating much rac or blow by you in space if you do guess wrong...he's the bait guy all the way

    and in years past with the pats as in a few years ago i would go along with welker was the focus but gronk took that from him a couple years ago when they decided that the 2 tight end sets with gronk and hernandez were what they were gonna make as their bread and butter and best mismatch options...gronk especially being the focal point...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooshoops View Post
    i see it more as hartline being tannehills security blanket...he's the to the sticks wr who runs solid routes but also the primary bait one cause there is a heavy tendency for his routes to be run to the sticks...allowing for bait plays when the down and distance dictates it...and he's not a wr that you have to worry about creating much rac or blow by you in space if you do guess wrong...he's the bait guy all the way
    I don't disagree on what Hartline is or what his limitations are. Nevertheless he's the focal point of our passing game and therefore our offense. In fact, I would argue it's why our offense is not very good.

    and in years past with the pats as in a few years ago i would go along with welker was the focus but gronk took that from him a couple years ago when they decided that the 2 tight end sets with gronk and hernandez were what they were gonna make as their bread and butter and best mismatch options...gronk especially being the focal point...
    I suppose this is true. Before Gronkowski came along you would agree that the offense went through Welker and not through Moss, yes? Or perhaps you wouldn't. In any case the example is only meant to illustrate a point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    I don't disagree on what Hartline is or what his limitations are. Nevertheless he's the focal point of our passing game and therefore our offense. In fact, I would argue it's why our offense is not very good.



    I suppose this is true. Before Gronkowski came along you would agree that the offense went through Welker and not through Moss, yes? Or perhaps you wouldn't. In any case the example is only meant to illustrate a point.
    our offense is doing more than it probably should be because the qb is carrying it...we have limitations that a lot of qbs would fail miserably with...in that regard tannehills saving some of these guys skins...

    i think when moss was getting up there in years as in he couldn't separate anymore from single coverage vertical which was a major red flag i saw before the pats traded him they did the right thing and went with welker as the focal point...that's one thing about beli and the pats they id their future returns studs and guys who are about to or are falling off with almost perfect timing and adjust their scheme and who they should hitch their wagon to damn well...and usually can find some sucker still living off what a players past reputation is instead of future return...

    imo off what i saw it went moss, welker, gronk and 2 tight end...it was gronk still this year and they were starting to kill people with it before he went out sunday although the 2 tight end mismatch thing was out the window cause they didn't have it...thus more slot emphasis with amendola and edelman...nothing was gonna change any time soon there barring yet another major injury

    now it looks to me like shane vereen is gonna be driving the train for the short term...although i don't think he's the level of any of those guys who carried em in the past and easier to limit
    Last edited by hooshoops; 12-10-2013 at 11:45 PM.
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    On offense: We have to be able to run the ball...period! Not every play but enough to control the clock and keep Brady on the sidelines where he belongs. Short passing game, getting first downs and not turning it over is how we beat them, not 45 yd bombs. If we have to kick a field goal so be it, but Sturgis has to be money on Sunday. Tannehill HAS TO avoid his one boneheaded INT this week.
    On defense: it's simple--pressure Brady and take away the running game. He rolls up like a little girl when he feels pressure. Wake will not consistently get to him on the outside--he will just step up and avoid it. We need to attack him up the middle with more twists and stunts. Not having to face Gronk is HUGE for us, as we can focus on stopping the run. I believe it will be a very close game and if we can finish in the 4th quarter we will win. We are going to shock the world, but our players will not be shocked--they expect to win this game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooshoops View Post
    our offense is doing more than it probably should be because the qb is carrying it...we have limitations that a lot of qbs would fail miserably with...in that regard tannehills saving some of these guys skins...

    i think when moss was getting up there in years as in he couldn't separate anymore from single coverage vertical which was a major red flag i saw before the pats traded him they did the right thing and went with welker as the focal point...that's one thing about beli and the pats they id their future returns studs and guys who are about to or are falling off with almost perfect timing and adjust their scheme and who they should hitch their wagon to damn well...and usually can find some sucker still living off what a players past reputation is instead of future return...

    imo off what i saw it went moss, welker, gronk and 2 tight end...it was gronk still this year and they were starting to kill people with it before he went out sunday although the 2 tight end mismatch thing was out the window cause they didn't have it...thus more slot emphasis with amendola and edelman...nothing was gonna change any time soon there barring yet another major injury

    now it looks to me like shane vereen is gonna be driving the train for the short term...although i don't think he's the level of any of those guys who carried em in the past and easier to limit
    The point in this case, though, is if you're Belichick and you're looking at Dolphins tape... which skill position player are you trying to stop? For me it's Hartline, with your second focus on Clay. Take away Tannehill's security blanket. Make Rishard Matthews beat you between the hashes and make Tannehill and Wallace connect deep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    The point in this case, though, is if you're Belichick and you're looking at Dolphins tape... which skill position player are you trying to stop? For me it's Hartline, with your second focus on Clay. Take away Tannehill's security blanket. Make Rishard Matthews beat you between the hashes and make Tannehill and Wallace connect deep.
    i know clays on that list...i guess i could see where they would feel confident talib can handle mike wallace for the most part on his own...physically he will own him so sherman needs to understand this and work to get him off the los clean etc...talib does a pretty good job of shutting down your top weapon

    but if we work off pa on first down like we did vs carolina we could have some vertical success...problem is though that the pats aren't gonna play it like the panthers did where they commit 8 to the box when they can limit our run game with just 7 as it is...carolina dared us to work em deep with wallace on early downs...i don't think beli will play it like that...he could but talib could have problems with that speed...

    so yeah they are gonna make mathews make plays and show em and like you said probably focus on hartline and the move the sticks guy and they know that they got some issues with a lb on clay so may see more safety attention there in some sets
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    Until Wallace and Tannehill prove they can hit consistently I wouldn't pay Wallace any special attention at all if I'm a D coordinator. When they had the chance in that Panthers game if they would have hit on 3 or 4 of those wide open TDs and blown the game wide open it might be a different story, but that was as good as it'll ever get for those 2 and they still only managed 7 points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooshoops View Post
    i know clays on that list...i guess i could see where they would feel confident talib can handle mike wallace for the most part on his own...physically he will own him so sherman needs to understand this and work to get him off the los clean etc...talib does a pretty good job of shutting down your top weapon

    but if we work off pa on first down like we did vs carolina we could have some vertical success...problem is though that the pats aren't gonna play it like the panthers did where they commit 8 to the box when they can limit our run game with just 7 as it is...carolina dared us to work em deep with wallace on early downs...i don't think beli will play it like that...he could but talib could have problems with that speed...

    so yeah they are gonna make mathews make plays and show em and like you said probably focus on hartline and the move the sticks guy and they know that they got some issues with a lb on clay so may see more safety attention there in some sets
    Exactly. Now that the coaches film has been released I can go and take a look at the Patriots' tendencies but I'd expect a good deal of cover 6 in this game. That's a cover 2/man under (or flat/zone) look to one side and a cover 4 look to the other. That's not an uncommon coverage against us, but usually it's Wallace that gets the cover 2 side of the defense (as that is the "double team" side). Belichick might give those looks to Hartline instead.

    Anyway, what you give up here is the comeback to Wallace's side. Not his best route. And you leave yourself open to the deep post if your pass rush doesn't get home (if the offense can influence the cover 4 side safety with something in front of him).

    Here's a diagram of what I'm talking about:



    In the scenario I'm talking about, the defense would be in this alignment with Hartline to the bottom of the screen. Wallace would be on the top. You can see how Wallace would have the comeback open to him because of the delay the linebacker has in getting into his hook/curl responsibility. However, the corner to Hartline's side would essentially be eliminating any comeback Hartline would try to run, which is his best route.
    Last edited by TheWalrus; 12-11-2013 at 12:57 AM.
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