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Thread: I am coming out of the closet.... this is hard to do but....

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoonBoss View Post
    Laughable. Did you even think before posting that? It's so insulting.
    It is really not that insulting if you understand she isn't talking about Christianity. Religion is man's attempt to reach God, Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. What she is talking about is really not that far off if you are not talking about Christianity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTOWNFINFAN View Post
    VERY well said!!! If we could walk the walk and talk the talk then we wouldn't even NEED Jesus's sacriface on the cross. I'm going to a very real heaven because of what Christ did for me, not what I have done for myself. All I have done is believed on Him and accepted his sacriface.
    You seem a great deal like some Christians that made a great impact on my life when I was young.
    That's a good thing, and you stated your case very well.

    Now, I still don't believe we can put god in a box, I reserve judgement, but that was very well stated.


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    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    you were concerned my title might refer to a lead foot? LOL
    Not at all, just agreeing with you on a short message lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTOWNFINFAN View Post
    To not believe in hell is to not believe in Jesus. Jesus spoke more about hell than did anyone else in the entire bible.

    Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    You or anyone else can makeup your own fantasy as to what happens after death, if that is what helps you get to sleep at night, but don't confuse that with the teaching of Jesus Christ. He's pretty clear on the subject.
    I don't think "hell" as you are referring with a capital "H" is a place as we were taught in Church - I think "hell" is eternal death, 6 feet under, no question, it is warranted for everyone accept that Jesus said if you "represent" believe in me and tell others you believe in me I (Jesus) will "represent" you to my Father

    The way I see it -> the soul is not eternal -> God created the soul God can annihilate the soul -> the Soul is eternal if you are Greek -> and the NT is written to a mainly former Jews (Christians) and a huge Greek audience so there are areas of local greek colloquialism for instance bible translators love to swap out what Jesus is said to have said for words that suggest an eternal ongoing damnation for the unrepentant.

    When Jesus tells Peter that Gates of Hell shall not stand in your way Peter -> Jesus was speaking in local colloquialism -> because Jesus was referring to "the Gates of Hades" often translated "Gates of Hell" -> when Jesus uses this phrase he wasn't suggesting He believed in actual place called Hades -

    Hades is Greek mythology - and Jesus was saying boys don't be afraid the "gates" don't stand in your way because they don't exist - The place where Jesus took his disciples does however exist to this days -> so do the JAWS see for your self a place once called Caesarea Philpipi -> a place of great debauchery

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=0

    Secondly heaven and hell and all this heaven and hell talk is largely the Greek worlds mixing with Jesus and what he had to say about resurrection -> resurrection is the goal not heaven

    And no I wouldn't think God would make someone be with him if they preferred hell or death (6 feet under) but all the same time common sense says that if you spent your life angry at God -> trying to piss him off and then you died expecting "hell" -> "hell" for that rebellious person would look like sitting with Jesus with a white harp in a white robe no??

    My opinion is that the Scriptures make more than a strong case that God won't construct two places one for the "eternally damned and one for the resurrected" -> So I hold out great hope for my brother Vaark but I don't expect Vaark to live a life of eternal torture either way -> he will live resurrected with Christ or his life and soul will be a vapor

    I am quite sure how Christians come up with the Barbeque idea the reformers like Jonathan Edwards they used **cough** plagiarized Dante's inferno to "win" converts by scaring the "Hades is a place" into unsuspecting folks... The church certainly grew -> today we pay for this

    Grief and sin stricken people still picture God waving big stick up in "heaven" at them

    My God however calls people out of love for them -> My God sent Jesus who emptied his godhead his rightful place next to His Father, if you were a parent (and maybe you are fortunate to understand) and you ask your child to come sit on your knee - do they come out of fear that if they don't come you will "beat on them" or do they come because you asked and it is the right thing to do???

    WHY IS IT ANY DIFFERENT FOR GOD??

    See how people use Hades to leverage people to God - BECAUSE IT IS EASSY AND LAZY WAY TO CONSCRIPT - is it right? Is it just? Is it godly?

    My God DROPPED the stick when he accepted Christ as my substitute -

    And Vk don't be messin around this is serious "life or death" just because you aren't a murderer doesn't mean that we haven't missed the mark and fallen short of God's holiness - a "SIN" is "missing the mark" -> like shooting an arrow at a target the miss is a "SIN" and we have all missed it most of us on a minute by minute basis -

    And HoneyB if you a woman, I am sorry for calling you "Bro"
    Last edited by rev kev; 07-04-2014 at 05:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTOWNFINFAN View Post
    It is really not that insulting if you understand she isn't talking about Christianity. Religion is man's attempt to reach God, Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. What she is talking about is really not that far off if you are not talking about Christianity.
    Just as devout practitioners of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, etc believe theirs is the vehicle to reach "god". " Pretty presumptuous of you to believe you are right - just as presumptuous of them to think they are! And so it goes.




    "Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like everyone else."
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTOWNFINFAN View Post
    It is really not that insulting if you understand she isn't talking about Christianity. Religion is man's attempt to reach God, Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. What she is talking about is really not that far off if you are not talking about Christianity.
    Yes, I was referring to organized religion, which is separate from the concept of God. I talked about why it exists, and why some have moved away from it. But there are many cultural benefits to organized religion, and therefore it will never go away, despite its shortcomings. I am also steadfast in the opinion of religion missing its golden opportunity to help us overcome our fears.

    There's a really cute movie called "Defending Your Life" with Meryl Streep and Albert Brooks. Its concept of the purpose for living, what heaven is, and how you can get to the next level is as good an explanation as any other I've seen. It's all about conquering Fear. If you do, you move forward, if you don't, you get reincarnated and try again. It's about love also, but love is not presented as a definition of good or of God, necessarily. It's just a vehicle to help you overcome your fears. The movie is about growing up, and things like desire and success are all in context of the maturity level of that person.

    In the flick, Albert dies, and then has to go to court and "defend" his life. The interesting thing is there's plenty of shame and fear,...but it's all in Albert's character. It doesn't exist around him. Albert is a metaphor for us, for our struggles, and embodies our very humanity. He tries to figure out the court proceedings based on his previous experiences, and doesn't "get" what it's really about until the end. He can't game the system, he has to open his soul and it is what it is...he either transcends his fear or he doesn't. There's a happy ending, of course.


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  7. -57
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    Quote Originally Posted by KTOWNFINFAN View Post
    VERY well said!!! If we could walk the walk and talk the talk then we wouldn't even NEED Jesus's sacriface on the cross. I'm going to a very real heaven because of what Christ did for me, not what I have done for myself. All I have done is believed on Him and accepted his sacriface.
    But Jesus was a jew, and if only Christians go to heaven,, using your logic, wouldnt Jesus be in hell?
    Once Dmac is drafted a Dmac Jersey will spontaneously materialize in the closet of each and every Dolfan...

    ...and not that replica crap either...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    I don't think "hell" as you are referring with a capital "H" is a place as we were taught in Church - I think "hell" is eternal death, 6 feet under, no question, it is warranted for everyone accept that Jesus said if you "represent" believe in me and tell others you believe in me I (Jesus) will "represent" you to my Father

    The way I see it -> the soul is not eternal -> God created the soul God can annihilate the soul -> the Soul is eternal if you are Greek -> and the NT is written to a mainly former Jews (Christians) and a huge Greek audience so there are areas of local greek colloquialism for instance bible translators love to swap out what Jesus is said to have said for words that suggest an eternal ongoing damnation for the unrepentant.

    When Jesus tells Peter that Gates of Hell shall not stand in your way Peter -> Jesus was speaking in local colloquialism -> because Jesus was referring to "the Gates of Hades" often translated "Gates of Hell" -> when Jesus uses this phrase he wasn't suggesting He believed in actual place called Hades -

    Hades is Greek mythology - and Jesus was saying boys don't be afraid the "gates" don't stand in your way because they don't exist - The place where Jesus took his disciples does however exist to this days -> so do the JAWS see for your self a place once called Caesarea Philpipi -> a place of great debauchery

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=0

    Secondly heaven and hell and all this heaven and hell talk is largely the Greek worlds mixing with Jesus and what he had to say about resurrection -> resurrection is the goal not heaven

    And no I wouldn't think God would make someone be with him if they preferred hell or death (6 feet under) but all the same time common sense says that if you spent your life angry at God -> trying to piss him off and then you died expecting "hell" -> "hell" for that rebellious person would look like sitting with Jesus with a white harp in a white robe no??

    My opinion is that the Scriptures make more than a strong case that God won't construct two places one for the "eternally damned and one for the resurrected" -> So I hold out great hope for my brother Vaark but I don't expect Vaark to live a life of eternal torture either way -> he will live resurrected with Christ or his life and soul will be a vapor

    I am quite sure how Christians come up with the Barbeque idea the reformers like Jonathan Edwards they used **cough** plagiarized Dante's inferno to "win" converts by scaring the "Hades is a place" into unsuspecting folks... The church certainly grew -> today we pay for this

    Grief and sin stricken people still picture God waving big stick up in "heaven" at them

    My God however calls people out of love for them -> My God sent Jesus who emptied his godhead his rightful place next to His Father, if you were a parent (and maybe you are fortunate to understand) and you ask your child to come sit on your knee - do they come out of fear that if they don't come you will "beat on them" or do they come because you asked and it is the right thing to do???

    WHY IS IT ANY DIFFERENT FOR GOD??

    See how people use Hades to leverage people to God - BECAUSE IT IS EASSY AND LAZY WAY TO CONSCRIPT - is it right? Is it just? Is it godly?

    My God DROPPED the stick when he accepted Christ as my substitute -

    And Vk don't be messin around this is serious "life or death" just because you aren't a murderer doesn't mean that we haven't missed the mark and fallen short of God's holiness - a "SIN" is "missing the mark" -> like shooting an arrow at a target the miss is a "SIN" and we have all missed it most of us on a minute by minute basis -

    And HoneyB if you a woman, I am sorry for calling you "Bro"

    I think that is a very dangerous opinion to hold. Christians like Jonathan Edwards get the idea of hell being a literal place directly from the bible. To reject this is to minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and distort the perfection of divine justice. God calls us out of love, but he also takes sin very seriously. Take Lot's wife for example. God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. For what? One final look back at her home? It is understandable how some might ask, if that was really an offense worthy of death. There are many other accounts of God’s judgment that appear equally capricious and severe. In many of those cases it is hard to understand how something seemingly so trivial could enact such a severe judgment. Sometimes I want to think “That’s not fair!” But responses like that reveal a failure to grasp the depth of sin. God sees things differently and more clearly than we do. He sees our sin as insurrection, rebellion against His holiness and sees the hidden motives and intentions at the core of our actions. Our sins have offended an infinitely glorious and holy God, and punishment must correspond to that offense. God will by no means acquit the wicked (Ex. 34:6-7). He will give the unbeliever exactly what he deserves.

    The real conflict over the biblical doctrine of hell is essentially an issue of authority. What the Bible affirms about hell forces you to believe or disbelieve, to accept or reject.

    Every New Testament author acknowledges the doctrine of hell, but Jesus said the most about it. The existence of hell wasn’t something Jesus questioned, debated or defended. He assumed the reality of hell just as much as He did the resurrection:

    (John 5:28-29)
    Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Hell isn't just being 6 feet under, becasue according to that scripture all who are 6 feet under will hear his voice and come out. Some will rise to live, and others will rise to be condemned.

    Jesus viewed hell as a real place, a certainty, and so should you. When Jesus talked about hell, His purpose was always to warn, not to raise questions or plant doubts. Consider the graphic words He used to portray hell. They clearly aren’t meant to provide comfort.

    According to Jesus, hell is a place of outer darkness (Matthew 22:13) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). Hell is a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires (Mark 9:48-49). Hell is a place of spiritual and bodily destruction (Matthew 10:28) where there are endless torments (Luke 16:23-24).

    The word geenna (hell) is derived from Hinnom, the name of a valley just southwest of Jerusalem used as the city dump. It was a place where trash was continually burned and where the fire, smoke, and smell never ceased. The location was originally desecrated by King Ahaz when “he burned incense in the valley of Ben-hinnom, and burned his sons in fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had driven out before the sons of Israel” (2 Chron. 28:3). That wicked king had used the valley to erect an altar to the pagan god Molech, an altar on which one’s own children sometimes were offered by being burned alive. It would later be called “the valley of Slaughter” (Jer. 19:6). As part of his godly reforms, King Josiah tore down all the altars there and turned the valley into the garbage incinerator it continued to be until New Testament times. The name of the valley therefore came to be a metonym for the place of eternal torment, and was so used by Jesus eleven times.

    Jesus would not use this word for hell 11 times (which paints a very clear picture) if it wasn't an actual place.

    Here are some more portraits of hell from 3 different new testament writers:

    Then the King will say to those on His left, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”…These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:41, 46)

    If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43)

    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

    It goes on and on. Clear evidence about hell can be found all over the pages of Scripture. Just as you don't understand how some Christians come up with the idea of hell being a real place, I have no clue how anyone can challenge the existence, or eternality of hell in the face of such clear and undeniable evidence.

    The good news is that God has not only told us everything we need to know about hell, but also tells us everything we need to know on how to avoid it through the merits of Christ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bingit View Post
    I think that is a very dangerous opinion to hold. Christians like Jonathan Edwards get the idea of hell being a literal place directly from the bible. To reject this is to minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and distort the perfection of divine justice. God calls us out of love, but he also takes sin very seriously. Take Lot's wife for example. God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. For what? One final look back at her home? It is understandable how some might ask, if that was really an offense worthy of death. There are many other accounts of God’s judgment that appear equally capricious and severe. In many of those cases it is hard to understand how something seemingly so trivial could enact such a severe judgment. Sometimes I want to think “That’s not fair!” But responses like that reveal a failure to grasp the depth of sin. God sees things differently and more clearly than we do. He sees our sin as insurrection, rebellion against His holiness and sees the hidden motives and intentions at the core of our actions. Our sins have offended an infinitely glorious and holy God, and punishment must correspond to that offense. God will by no means acquit the wicked (Ex. 34:6-7). He will give the unbeliever exactly what he deserves.

    The real conflict over the biblical doctrine of hell is essentially an issue of authority. What the Bible affirms about hell forces you to believe or disbelieve, to accept or reject.

    Every New Testament author acknowledges the doctrine of hell, but Jesus said the most about it. The existence of hell wasn’t something Jesus questioned, debated or defended. He assumed the reality of hell just as much as He did the resurrection:

    (John 5:28-29)
    Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Hell isn't just being 6 feet under, becasue according to that scripture all who are 6 feet under will hear his voice and come out. Some will rise to live, and others will rise to be condemned.

    Jesus viewed hell as a real place, a certainty, and so should you. When Jesus talked about hell, His purpose was always to warn, not to raise questions or plant doubts. Consider the graphic words He used to portray hell. They clearly aren’t meant to provide comfort.

    According to Jesus, hell is a place of outer darkness (Matthew 22:13) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). Hell is a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires (Mark 9:48-49). Hell is a place of spiritual and bodily destruction (Matthew 10:28) where there are endless torments (Luke 16:23-24).

    The word geenna (hell) is derived from Hinnom, the name of a valley just southwest of Jerusalem used as the city dump. It was a place where trash was continually burned and where the fire, smoke, and smell never ceased. The location was originally desecrated by King Ahaz when “he burned incense in the valley of Ben-hinnom, and burned his sons in fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had driven out before the sons of Israel” (2 Chron. 28:3). That wicked king had used the valley to erect an altar to the pagan god Molech, an altar on which one’s own children sometimes were offered by being burned alive. It would later be called “the valley of Slaughter” (Jer. 19:6). As part of his godly reforms, King Josiah tore down all the altars there and turned the valley into the garbage incinerator it continued to be until New Testament times. The name of the valley therefore came to be a metonym for the place of eternal torment, and was so used by Jesus eleven times.

    Jesus would not use this word for hell 11 times (which paints a very clear picture) if it wasn't an actual place.

    Here are some more portraits of hell from 3 different new testament writers:

    Then the King will say to those on His left, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”…These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:41, 46)

    If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43)

    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

    It goes on and on. Clear evidence about hell can be found all over the pages of Scripture. Just as you don't understand how some Christians come up with the idea of hell being a real place, I have no clue how anyone can challenge the existence, or eternality of hell in the face of such clear and undeniable evidence.

    The good news is that God has not only told us everything we need to know about hell, but also tells us everything we need to know on how to avoid it through the merits of Christ.
    The problem is free will and faith. We have free will and that means we do not have to accept faith if we so desire to walk that path. Regardless of the religion, faith is the underlying principle and faith by definition (as we humans define it) is unquantifiable.

    I cannot jump in a car and drive to "Hell" as defined by the bible, I can drive to New Jersey which I have to believe isn't far from hell if not the entrance itself. When talking about religions beliefs there is no tangible proof that anything at all is true. We take it on faith that it is, that's the beauty of religion in my opinion, you have to accept that we as humans will never "know" anything in entirety. Regardless of what we believe we will never "know" what happens after death. I personally believe that death is just a gateway to enlighten our conscience on a exponential level, a Godly level. Death is a path to understand things inconceivable to us in life a path to a higher order of things.

    I'm not afraid of death, however it works out I will then "know" the answer to my questions and that to me is worth the price of admission.
    Peace and Humptiness Forever


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    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    The problem is free will and faith. We have free will and that means we do not have to accept faith if we so desire to walk that path. Regardless of the religion, faith is the underlying principle and faith by definition (as we humans define it) is unquantifiable.

    I cannot jump in a car and drive to "Hell" as defined by the bible, I can drive to New Jersey which I have to believe isn't far from hell if not the entrance itself. When talking about religions beliefs there is no tangible proof that anything at all is true. We take it on faith that it is, that's the beauty of religion in my opinion, you have to accept that we as humans will never "know" anything in entirety. Regardless of what we believe we will never "know" what happens after death. I personally believe that death is just a gateway to enlighten our conscience on a exponential level, a Godly level. Death is a path to understand things inconceivable to us in life a path to a higher order of things.

    I'm not afraid of death, however it works out I will then "know" the answer to my questions and that to me is worth the price of admission.
    You are absolutely right about faith. It's not a problem though, it is life. We exercise faith in many different areas of life. Everyone has their own reasons for why they put their faith in certain things. There are things that people put their faith in that I find unreasonable. I'm sure there are people that feel that way about the Bible. That is free will. There are many reasons why I believe that I have a reasonable faith. It is not a blind faith, but it still comes down to faith. I have faith that the Bible is the inspired word of God. (2 Timothy 3:16) What the Bible says forces you to believe or disbelieve, to accept or reject.

    I believe! I accept! And in doing so the Bible says I get to avoid hell and go to heaven. Not based on my own merits, but those of Christ.
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