Welcome to FinHeaven Fans Forums! We're glad to have you here. Please feel free to browse the forum. We'd like to invite you to join our community; doing so will enable you to view additional forums and post with our other members.



VIP Members don't see these ads. Join VIP Now
Page 7 of 15 FirstFirst ... 23456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 145

Thread: I am coming out of the closet.... this is hard to do but....

  1. -61
    TheWalrus's Avatar
    1/7/14

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Dec 2011
    Posts:
    9,137
    vCash:
    36963
    Thanks / No Thanks
    I suppose it's worth asking the faithful in this thread how they reconcile the idea of their own free will with the idea that God is omniscient. If God is truly omniscient, that would imply not only that he not only knows what you are going to do, say, tomorrow... but he knew what you were going to do before he created you. Which unavoidably implies that you and I were created specifically to do what we do. If God had wanted us to make different decisions, after all, he could have created us in such a way that we would. But he didn't.

    Creator and omniscience within the same being therefore implies a satisfaction with the universe and everything in it. Every aspect of the universe -- down to the action of every atom in every being -- becomes a decision by God.
    Last edited by TheWalrus; 07-10-2014 at 12:21 AM.
    Quote Quote  

  2. -62
    NY8123's Avatar
    Sophisticated Redneck

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jan 2008
    Posts:
    12,182
    vCash:
    9417
    Loc:
    out in the Ding Weeds
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    I suppose it's worth asking the faithful in this thread how they reconcile the idea of their own free will with the idea that God is omniscient. If God is truly omniscient, that would imply not only that he not only knows what you are going to do, say, tomorrow... but he knew what you were going to do before he created you. Which unavoidably implies that you and I were created specifically to do what we do. If God had wanted us to make different decisions, after all, he could have created us in such a way that we would. But he didn't.

    Creator and omniscience within the same being therefore implies a satisfaction with the universe and everything in it. Every aspect of the universe -- down to the action of every atom in every being -- becomes a decision by God.
    Godly omniscient doesn't mean you cannot have free will, omniscience only means that God is aware and perceives all things at all times. The definition of omniscience doesn't say that free will is determined it just says that as soon as it is set into motion that it is understood at the instance of conception.

    Let's say for discussion that a being gave us (engineered, created, whatever) life and consciousness, wouldn't it be prudent to give us the ability to create omniscient? If the being can be aware and perceive all things at all times it would be wiser to have more things creating that awareness so that your omnipresent and omnipotence also expand.

    The difference with a being of that power is that it is outside of time, time is merely a dimension, like the measurements of a box 6" x 8" x 8" x 23,104 minutes. We don't know when the box will end but if you were outside of time you would know exactly when and how the box was created, lived and ended but you would know from the instance of conception, you would see it in 4 dimensions.

    People are bound by time, we wouldn't be able comprehend time as a dimension that could be seen and used to build. We can build in three dimensions and those are defined by the fourth, time. A being of godly nature is not defined by time, time is just a building block.

    I built 100 earths today, 25 are built for 1,000,000 years, 50 are built for 50,000 years and 25 are built for 50,000,000 years and I am aware of all things at all points in time. Within the time frame of 50,000,000 years we the humans have free will to act within our boundary of time however we cannot go outside of that prescribed time.

    I can't comprehend it because I wouldn't know what time looked like as a building block. I can only try to understand time as defined by humans and have faith that time is exponential, it never stops, it never rewinds, it always moves forward, time expands. Unless you are building with time, then all those things I said are untrue.

    I guess I love both sides of the argument, I love the concepts of faith and religion and I love that science tries to explain the unexplainable. Our science now in 1000 years will look as antiquated to us as science did 1000 years ago. Hell my argument is full of holes, you can rebuttal back and forth forever and not come to one concert conclusion about the meaning of life.
    "I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally" ~ W.C. Fields

    Quote Quote  

  3. -63
    TheWalrus's Avatar
    1/7/14

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Dec 2011
    Posts:
    9,137
    vCash:
    36963
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Godly omniscient doesn't mean you cannot have free will, omniscience only means that God is aware and perceives all things at all times. The definition of omniscience doesn't say that free will is determined it just says that as soon as it is set into motion that it is understood at the instance of conception.
    Well, different philosophical schools have different views about the definition of free will (who it's "with respect to"), but in if God does not know what's going to happen in the future, he can't really be said to have a plan for our lives, much less an over arching plan for the universe, can he? It would also disrupt the entire nature of prophesy.

    Let's say for discussion that a being gave us (engineered, created, whatever) life and consciousness, wouldn't it be prudent to give us the ability to create omniscient? If the being can be aware and perceive all things at all times it would be wiser to have more things creating that awareness so that your omnipresent and omnipotence also expand.
    With all due respect I don't think you've really thought that through.

    The difference with a being of that power is that it is outside of time, time is merely a dimension, like the measurements of a box 6" x 8" x 8" x 23,104 minutes. We don't know when the box will end but if you were outside of time you would know exactly when and how the box was created, lived and ended but you would know from the instance of conception, you would see it in 4 dimensions.

    People are bound by time, we wouldn't be able comprehend time as a dimension that could be seen and used to build. We can build in three dimensions and those are defined by the fourth, time. A being of godly nature is not defined by time, time is just a building block.

    I built 100 earths today, 25 are built for 1,000,000 years, 50 are built for 50,000 years and 25 are built for 50,000,000 years and I am aware of all things at all points in time. Within the time frame of 50,000,000 years we the humans have free will to act within our boundary of time however we cannot go outside of that prescribed time.

    I can't comprehend it because I wouldn't know what time looked like as a building block. I can only try to understand time as defined by humans and have faith that time is exponential, it never stops, it never rewinds, it always moves forward, time expands. Unless you are building with time, then all those things I said are untrue.

    I guess I love both sides of the argument, I love the concepts of faith and religion and I love that science tries to explain the unexplainable. Our science now in 1000 years will look as antiquated to us as science did 1000 years ago. Hell my argument is full of holes, you can rebuttal back and forth forever and not come to one concert conclusion about the meaning of life.
    Well to me it seems like there are two basic philosophical tracts to take. Either God knows what's going to happen in the future, or he doesn't. If he does, and he is also the Creator, it would imply that he is satisfied with everything in the universe. Everything is part of a plan. We might not be able to see the plan, and might feel that we have free will relative to our own decisions, but if it's going to happen then God knew that before he created all of us or any of this. He could have created it differently, but didn't. It would render the "morality" of the Bible all but moot. Since we were created to do what we do, all actions are justified. No one will be judged or punished, unless you believe that God would create a creature to be evil and then punish it for being evil.

    The other option is that God is the creator, but cannot see into the future. I'm neither religious nor spiritually inclined but to me this makes more sense. However, it's not really Christianity. It's closer to the Greek or Roman conception of God.



    #freespesh
    Quote Quote  

  4. -64
    rev kev's Avatar
    ihaveprettyfeet

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Mar 2004
    Posts:
    8,243
    vCash:
    59
    Loc:
    Calgary Alberta
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Bingit View Post
    I think that is a very dangerous opinion to hold. Christians like Jonathan Edwards get the idea of hell being a literal place directly from the bible. To reject this is to minimize the seriousness of human sin and guilt, and distort the perfection of divine justice. God calls us out of love, but he also takes sin very seriously. Take Lot's wife for example. God turned her into a pillar of salt as she was leaving Sodom. For what? One final look back at her home? It is understandable how some might ask, if that was really an offense worthy of death. There are many other accounts of God’s judgment that appear equally capricious and severe. In many of those cases it is hard to understand how something seemingly so trivial could enact such a severe judgment. Sometimes I want to think “That’s not fair!” But responses like that reveal a failure to grasp the depth of sin. God sees things differently and more clearly than we do. He sees our sin as insurrection, rebellion against His holiness and sees the hidden motives and intentions at the core of our actions. Our sins have offended an infinitely glorious and holy God, and punishment must correspond to that offense. God will by no means acquit the wicked (Ex. 34:6-7). He will give the unbeliever exactly what he deserves.

    The real conflict over the biblical doctrine of hell is essentially an issue of authority. What the Bible affirms about hell forces you to believe or disbelieve, to accept or reject.

    Every New Testament author acknowledges the doctrine of hell, but Jesus said the most about it. The existence of hell wasn’t something Jesus questioned, debated or defended. He assumed the reality of hell just as much as He did the resurrection:

    (John 5:28-29)
    Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Hell isn't just being 6 feet under, becasue according to that scripture all who are 6 feet under will hear his voice and come out. Some will rise to live, and others will rise to be condemned.

    Jesus viewed hell as a real place, a certainty, and so should you. When Jesus talked about hell, His purpose was always to warn, not to raise questions or plant doubts. Consider the graphic words He used to portray hell. They clearly aren’t meant to provide comfort.

    According to Jesus, hell is a place of outer darkness (Matthew 22:13) where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). Hell is a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires (Mark 9:48-49). Hell is a place of spiritual and bodily destruction (Matthew 10:28) where there are endless torments (Luke 16:23-24).

    The word geenna (hell) is derived from Hinnom, the name of a valley just southwest of Jerusalem used as the city dump. It was a place where trash was continually burned and where the fire, smoke, and smell never ceased. The location was originally desecrated by King Ahaz when “he burned incense in the valley of Ben-hinnom, and burned his sons in fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had driven out before the sons of Israel” (2 Chron. 28:3). That wicked king had used the valley to erect an altar to the pagan god Molech, an altar on which one’s own children sometimes were offered by being burned alive. It would later be called “the valley of Slaughter” (Jer. 19:6). As part of his godly reforms, King Josiah tore down all the altars there and turned the valley into the garbage incinerator it continued to be until New Testament times. The name of the valley therefore came to be a metonym for the place of eternal torment, and was so used by Jesus eleven times.

    Jesus would not use this word for hell 11 times (which paints a very clear picture) if it wasn't an actual place.

    Here are some more portraits of hell from 3 different new testament writers:

    Then the King will say to those on His left, “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”…These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:41, 46)

    If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43)

    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

    It goes on and on. Clear evidence about hell can be found all over the pages of Scripture. Just as you don't understand how some Christians come up with the idea of hell being a real place, I have no clue how anyone can challenge the existence, or eternality of hell in the face of such clear and undeniable evidence.

    The good news is that God has not only told us everything we need to know about hell, but also tells us everything we need to know on how to avoid it through the merits of Christ.
    Resurrection is literal the pictures/metaphors of hell we are given are horrible and devastating -> being separated from God and I don't want to go there -> in my opinion hell is death, it is eternal in the sense it is final and yes it comes after judgment

    Gehenna is still a place in Jerusalem, it is not eternal hell, there is absolutely no missing this, it became a place known for shame and disobedience. Jesus did not call it hell modern translators swayed the church by calling it "hell"

    Again - Death can be and may be complete and eternal separation from God - it doesn't require God to torture people for eternity

    Your proof texts are not new to me, the vernacular of the day was Greek, why wouldn't Jesus speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals? When I am disciplining my children I also speak in some rather colourful vernacular and I don't always follow through...



    Again we have a literal resurrection we don't have a literal "hell" we have Jesus preaching "Narrow is the road that leads to life wide the path is the path of destruction" (note it doesn't say eternal) Matthew 7:13

    Mark 9:43 -> translates cast into Gehinnom "to go away to the Gehenna, to the fire" the unquenchable fire is Gehenna not hell (this is one of the 11 times Jesus used the reference to Gehenna)

    Jesus didn't use the word hell or hades here??? I find it odd what translators are asking us to swallow

    BTW I have read stories from the time period of Jonathon Edwards that make fun of Jonathon Edwards plagiarizing Dante - which is telling

    The good news is that God has not only told us everything we need to know about hell, but also tells us everything we need to know on how to avoid it through the merits of Christ

    No argument there I think we should avoid "literal" death and turn to Christ for "literal" life
    Quote Quote  

  5. -65
    rev kev's Avatar
    ihaveprettyfeet

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Mar 2004
    Posts:
    8,243
    vCash:
    59
    Loc:
    Calgary Alberta
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    I suppose it's worth asking the faithful in this thread how they reconcile the idea of their own free will with the idea that God is omniscient. If God is truly omniscient, that would imply not only that he not only knows what you are going to do, say, tomorrow... but he knew what you were going to do before he created you. Which unavoidably implies that you and I were created specifically to do what we do. If God had wanted us to make different decisions, after all, he could have created us in such a way that we would. But he didn't.

    Creator and omniscience within the same being therefore implies a satisfaction with the universe and everything in it. Every aspect of the universe -- down to the action of every atom in every being -- becomes a decision by God.
    Yes a matter of faith that God knows the beginning and the end - God knows how this all plays out and the bible writers wrote that we have free will to please God and at other times some left the impression that we don't have free will, that is to say that we aren't responsible for our actions so why bother trying to please him... Sometimes the writyers spoke out of both sides of their mouths...

    So which one is it? All this Scripture and a lot of it redundant because we are responsible for our actions or all this tiresome recitation of the flights from Egypt because the Hebrews aren't responsible???

    The latter sounds nonsensical I agree
    Quote Quote  

  6. -66
    rev kev's Avatar
    ihaveprettyfeet

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Mar 2004
    Posts:
    8,243
    vCash:
    59
    Loc:
    Calgary Alberta
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    Well, different philosophical schools have different views about the definition of free will (who it's "with respect to"), but in if God does not know what's going to happen in the future, he can't really be said to have a plan for our lives, much less an over arching plan for the universe, can he? It would also disrupt the entire nature of prophesy.



    With all due respect I don't think you've really thought that through.



    Well to me it seems like there are two basic philosophical tracts to take. Either God knows what's going to happen in the future, or he doesn't. If he does, and he is also the Creator, it would imply that he is satisfied with everything in the universe. Everything is part of a plan. We might not be able to see the plan, and might feel that we have free will relative to our own decisions, but if it's going to happen then God knew that before he created all of us or any of this. He could have created it differently, but didn't. It would render the "morality" of the Bible all but moot. Since we were created to do what we do, all actions are justified. No one will be judged or punished, unless you believe that God would create a creature to be evil and then punish it for being evil.

    The other option is that God is the creator, but cannot see into the future. I'm neither religious nor spiritually inclined but to me this makes more sense. However, it's not really Christianity. It's closer to the Greek or Roman conception of God.
    I am a minister and also have to concede that I continue struggle with this idea of God's omniscience over my entire life - But I do believe (by faith) He sees the future with clarity and sometimes he is more hands off in daily affairs than at other times, I cannot explain Him though, I never will be able too
    Quote Quote  

  7. -67
    TheWalrus's Avatar
    1/7/14

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Dec 2011
    Posts:
    9,137
    vCash:
    36963
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    Yes a matter of faith that God knows the beginning and the end - God knows how this all plays out and the bible writers wrote that we have free will to please God and at other times some left the impression that we don't have free will, that is to say that we aren't responsible for our actions so why bother trying to please him... Sometimes the writyers spoke out of both sides of their mouths...

    So which one is it? All this Scripture and a lot of it redundant because we are responsible for our actions or all this tiresome recitation of the flights from Egypt because the Hebrews aren't responsible???

    The latter sounds nonsensical I agree
    It's more than not being responsible. Omniscience at the moment of creation implies that our actions are intentional designs on the part of God. He wanted us this way... otherwise he would have created us differently. You don't have to appeal to Scripture to look for the answer here. Either God knows or he doesn't. Both answers present problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    I am a minister and also have to concede that I continue struggle with this idea of God's omniscience over my entire life - But I do believe (by faith) He sees the future with clarity and sometimes he is more hands off in daily affairs than at other times, I cannot explain Him though, I never will be able too
    I appreciate your honesty. However at what point do you consider the idea that the reason there are holes and aspects that don't make sense is that flawed human beings are the ones that created this entire system of belief? Perhaps it doesn't quite work because they weren't quite smart enough to square the circle, as it were.

    I mean, it's one thing to not understand the "why" of the deity... why did they make such and such a choice? That's natural. I don't understand why I do things sometimes. The relationship between Godly omniscience and free will isn't like that. It simply doesn't make a lot of sense. Even NY's notion of God being outside of time -- which goes back to the Middle Ages and Ignatius J. Reilly's favorite philosopher -- Boethius -- doesn't really solve the problem.

    I mean, we're not talking about something that was created under laboratory conditions where it could be molded and tested and perfected by experts in logic and rhetoric. We're talking about Bronze age Middle Eastern nomads. That's who established these basic philosophical ideas. And they did pretty well by themselves, too. But the whole complex spiritual edifice of Judaism and Christianity and Islam rests on some pretty creaky fundamental supports. I think people too often just get lost in the edifice and forget to look at the supports.
    Last edited by TheWalrus; 07-10-2014 at 11:42 PM.
    Quote Quote  

  8. -68
    Bumpus's Avatar
    Are you gonna drink that?

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Jun 2003
    Posts:
    21,110
    vCash:
    31179
    Loc:
    West-by-god-Virginny
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Trophies
    2013 Dolphins Logo1972 Dolphins Logo
    Yea, abandon yon heathen religions & be saved ...

    Thar still be time to embrace the tenets of Bumpusism:

    http://www.finheaven.com/showthread....ngue-in-cheek)

    Learn, and be among thy blessed ones.
    2014 Goals:
    1) Win the next game.
    2) See goal #1





    "The problem with internet quotes lies in verifying their authenticity."
    -Abraham Lincoln
    Quote Quote  

  9. -69
    rev kev's Avatar
    ihaveprettyfeet

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Mar 2004
    Posts:
    8,243
    vCash:
    59
    Loc:
    Calgary Alberta
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    It's more than not being responsible. Omniscience at the moment of creation implies that our actions are intentional designs on the part of God. He wanted us this way... otherwise he would have created us differently. You don't have to appeal to Scripture to look for the answer here. Either God knows or he doesn't. Both answers present problems.



    I appreciate your honesty. However at what point do you consider the idea that the reason there are holes and aspects that don't make sense is that flawed human beings are the ones that created this entire system of belief? Perhaps it doesn't quite work because they weren't quite smart enough to square the circle, as it were.

    I mean, it's one thing to not understand the "why" of the deity... why did they make such and such a choice? That's natural. I don't understand why I do things sometimes. The relationship between Godly omniscience and free will isn't like that. It simply doesn't make a lot of sense. Even NY's notion of God being outside of time -- which goes back to the Middle Ages and Ignatius J. Reilly's favorite philosopher -- Boethius -- doesn't really solve the problem.

    I mean, we're not talking about something that was created under laboratory conditions where it could be molded and tested and perfected by experts in logic and rhetoric. We're talking about Bronze age Middle Eastern nomads. That's who established these basic philosophical ideas. And they did pretty well by themselves, too. But the whole complex spiritual edifice of Judaism and Christianity and Islam rests on some pretty creaky fundamental supports. I think people too often just get lost in the edifice and forget to look at the supports.
    "Omniscience at the moment of creation implies that our actions are intentional designs on the part of God."

    Maybe we don't have an English word maybe there isn't a language that fully encapsulates who God is and how he can manage "hands on and at times hands off" what appears to be our house of cards and lose his integrity. The best word we can come up with is omniscience.

    I believe that humans beings created systems of religiosity.

    I don't believe human created the idea of God.

    There are many fundamental wholes because God is too large for my finite brain to comprehend.

    In Judaism and Christianity God creates a physical world if there is no freedom then what is the point? Yes I know the argument God created Satan and therefore created evil... But let's look past just reading the Bible and instead let the Bible read us - like a lamp that shows our blemishes, now we come away with a different vantage point.

    God wants us to come at him like brainwashed children who adore their fathers - the Scriptures are clear that God loves this kind of naivety or purity. Society says how stupid, God says how grand that you would be like a child and just believe because I said so even though there is all this confounding information that suggests I am not here...

    People will stop at nothing to make sure that the revelation in the bible, is proven false.

    The further we go outside of the earth, for our meaning, and the further we look into atoms for our genesis the further we move away from naivety (it really isn't naivety when you look at the historical data in the bible and the archaeological support)- scientists are admitting through their efforts - the earth operates with different laws than the rest of the universe. And Quantum Physics dismisses many of the earlier findings of science about laws. Well "laws" have to work outside our world for them to constitute as "laws".

    So in my mind we either we have a God or gods who have left us revelation(s) or they haven't left squat, and we constructed and concocted systems - and this in my opinion is nonsensical. Judaism says God created the world out of love - that physical beings and spirit together is good. The other ancient religions said the world was created out of chaos - that anything "material" is insufficient.



    Jesus resurrection could not have made any sense to the Greco-Roman world. "Why would Jesus want to resurrect?" - The Greeks the body is just putrid bad weight holding down the spirit from the heavens... Both Judaism and Christianity say the flesh can be put to good service.

    I was four when I had an encounter with God that I feel likely changed my life trajectory, I was naïve and I could be accused of being brain-washed. Now in my mid forty's I can't scientifically explain my spiritual experiences they are mine alone - to ignore them would be to live untrue to myself

    Now I believe I have been changed by God, that I couldn't do it myself and that I am a work in progress, may gains spiritually are far smaller today than they were when I was a kid, and I have watched people before my eyes change on account of God's involvement in their lives. I have also watched a lot of crocodile tears. Because the heart is deceitful above all else.
    Quote Quote  

  10. -70
    TheWalrus's Avatar
    1/7/14

    Status:
    Offline
    WPA:
    Join date:
    Dec 2011
    Posts:
    9,137
    vCash:
    36963
    Thanks / No Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    "Omniscience at the moment of creation implies that our actions are intentional designs on the part of God."

    Maybe we don't have an English word maybe there isn't a language that fully encapsulates who God is and how he can manage "hands on and at times hands off" what appears to be our house of cards and lose his integrity. The best word we can come up with is omniscience.

    ...

    There are many fundamental holes because God is too large for my finite brain to comprehend.
    It's not a terminology issue, imo. Either God knows what we're going to do or he doesn't. If he knows we're going to do it, then we're going to do it. We don't have the "freedom" to do otherwise, regardless of the fact that we're unaware it's a fait accompli. And he has known since the beginning of time, regardless of how "God" perceives time.

    Why presume that things that you know don't make sense are simply beyond your perception? The alternative -- that it doesn't make sense because it was invented -- is much simpler. In other words, the problem doesn't have to be you. Why give every logical fallacy or nonsensical proposition a get out of jail free card by assuming that it's always your fault because you're not able to perceive as God does.

    In Judaism and Christianity God creates a physical world if there is no freedom then what is the point?
    Good question. It's part of the reason I don't think the idea of an omniscient Creator God is either true or desirable.

    God wants us to come at him like brainwashed children who adore their fathers - the Scriptures are clear that God loves this kind of naivety or purity. Society says how stupid, God says how grand that you would be like a child and just believe because I said so even though there is all this confounding information that suggests I am not here...
    This part of Christian philosophy really creeps me out, I must say. Have a bit more respect for yourself. I don't know how many people know that "Islam" literally means "submission." This idea that we're all sinners and the wages of sin are death -- in other words, we all deserve to die -- is self-defeating and sad. I might be nothing in the cosmic sense but my sense of self is by definition personal, and I'm not nothing to myself. I don't understand why people volunteer to consider themselves nothing.

    Furthermore, this idea that I should be as a child -- in essence, turn off my bull**** detector -- sounds more than anything else like a con job.

    "Uh, so why do I need this undercoating again?"
    "Don't think about it. Just let it happen."
    "But..."
    "No questions. Be as a child."
    "But children believe anything you tell them."
    "Exactly."

    The further we go outside of the earth, for our meaning, and the further we look into atoms for our genesis the further we move away from naivety (it really isn't naivety when you look at the historical data in the bible and the archaeological support)- scientists are admitting through their efforts - the earth operates with different laws than the rest of the universe. And Quantum Physics dismisses many of the earlier findings of science about laws. Well "laws" have to work outside our world for them to constitute as "laws".
    Two things. First off, there are many aspects to the Bible that are entirely unfounded in archeological terms. The whole story of Exodus, for example, the escape from Egypt and the wandering in the desert, is entirely unfounded. A team from a major university in Israel spent about 25 years in the desert (part of a hundred years worth of expeditions) and found nothing. Not a thing.

    As for new scientific theories coming along and making the old irrelevant... that's how science works. Science is an attempt to observe and understand the world using the scientific method. Religion on the other hand has no methods. It's not based on observation. It's based on faith.

    What's interesting is how the scientific community tends react to new theories that challenge established precedent. Sometimes it is very reminiscent to how the religious react to challenges to their belief. Part of human nature, I suppose. At the end of the day though, these are people driven by data and the data -- the method -- tends to win out. Not so with the religious, who are not grounded in this way.

    I was four when I had an encounter with God that I feel likely changed my life trajectory, I was naïve and I could be accused of being brain-washed. Now in my mid forty's I can't scientifically explain my spiritual experiences they are mine alone - to ignore them would be to live untrue to myself

    Now I believe I have been changed by God, that I couldn't do it myself and that I am a work in progress, may gains spiritually are far smaller today than they were when I was a kid, and I have watched people before my eyes change on account of God's involvement in their lives. I have also watched a lot of crocodile tears. Because the heart is deceitful above all else.
    I understand. I know people with similar stories. However, I'm sure you'd agree there are many people who can report similar experiences in their own religion... nevertheless you think (or "realize", more accurately) their religion is a man made creation.
    Last edited by TheWalrus; 07-11-2014 at 04:12 PM.
    Quote Quote  

Similar Threads

  1. Tom Brady came out of the closet???
    By Phinz Up in forum The Depths of the Sea
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-29-2009, 01:57 PM
  2. Closet Dolphins Fan
    By WeVie in forum Miami Dolphins Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 12-25-2008, 12:37 PM
  3. Ricky Martin Defends Coming Out Of Closet
    By BAMAPHIN 22 in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-31-2007, 08:51 AM
  4. A lot of Closet fin fans all over !!!!
    By Mr.offerdahl in forum Miami Dolphins Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-17-2005, 01:12 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •