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Thread: I am coming out of the closet.... this is hard to do but....

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    Bingit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    Resurrection is literal the pictures/metaphors of hell we are given are horrible and devastating -> being separated from God and I don't want to go there -> in my opinion hell is death, it is eternal in the sense it is final and yes it comes after judgment

    Gehenna is still a place in Jerusalem, it is not eternal hell, there is absolutely no missing this, it became a place known for shame and disobedience. Jesus did not call it hell modern translators swayed the church by calling it "hell"

    Again - Death can be and may be complete and eternal separation from God - it doesn't require God to torture people for eternity

    Your proof texts are not new to me, the vernacular of the day was Greek, why wouldn't Jesus speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals? When I am disciplining my children I also speak in some rather colourful vernacular and I don't always follow through...



    Again we have a literal resurrection we don't have a literal "hell" we have Jesus preaching "Narrow is the road that leads to life wide the path is the path of destruction" (note it doesn't say eternal) Matthew 7:13

    Mark 9:43 -> translates cast into Gehinnom "to go away to the Gehenna, to the fire" the unquenchable fire is Gehenna not hell (this is one of the 11 times Jesus used the reference to Gehenna)

    Jesus didn't use the word hell or hades here??? I find it odd what translators are asking us to swallow

    BTW I have read stories from the time period of Jonathon Edwards that make fun of Jonathon Edwards plagiarizing Dante - which is telling

    The good news is that God has not only told us everything we need to know about hell, but also tells us everything we need to know on how to avoid it through the merits of Christ

    No argument there I think we should avoid "literal" death and turn to Christ for "literal" life
    That opinion does not line up with the scriptures. The valley of Hinnom is not the eternal hell. It was used as a picture / metaphor for the eternal hell and was known as just that. Jesus did speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals. Hinnom when translated into Greek is Geheena. Why is Jesus using a place that was known for fire that never ceased as a metaphor for hell if he is only talking about death? You may not follow through on things you say, but a Holy God does.

    Time and time again, the Bible references eternal flames and everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46 is one reference: The wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. It is very clear throughout scripture what that eternal punishment is. It is not death, but an eternity in hell.

    Punishment in hell is often defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. The same word is used to describe heaven, God, and punishment in hell. It doesn't make sense to accept that God and heaven are eternal, but not accept that punishment in hell is eternal. Scripture after scripture talks about eternal punishment in a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12) in a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting God or heaven.

    Matthew 7:13 doesn't say eternal when talking about the narrow gate that leads to life either. But we both would agree that life in heaven is eternal right?

    Luke 16:19-30 is another good example. Two men died. One went to heaven while one went to Hades. In verse 24, the rich man says, " I am in tormented in this fire. That is talking about a man who already died. (John 5:28-29) Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come outóthose who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Why is God going to call those who have done evil out of their graves ("literal" death) just to condemn them back to a literal death? That doesn't make sense, and it doesn't go along with the Bible's descriptions of hell and eternal punishment.

    I think what it comes down to is us not wanting to believe the Bibleís teaching about eternal torment. It is a scary doctrine. Itís impossible for us to conceive of us doing something so bad that merits everlasting torment described in the Bible. It is a lot easier to just think that we cease to exist. However, that just goes to show just how little we understand about the holiness of God and how seriously he takes sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    It's not a terminology issue, imo. Either God knows what we're going to do or he doesn't. If he knows we're going to do it, then we're going to do it. We don't have the "freedom" to do otherwise, regardless of the fact that we're unaware it's a fait accompli. And he has known since the beginning of time, regardless of how "God" perceives time.

    Why presume that things that you know don't make sense are simply beyond your perception? The alternative -- that it doesn't make sense because it was invented -- is much simpler. In other words, the problem doesn't have to be you. Why give every logical fallacy or nonsensical proposition a get out of jail free card by assuming that it's always your fault because you're not able to perceive as God does.



    Good question. It's part of the reason I don't think the idea of an omniscient Creator God is either true or desirable.



    This part of Christian philosophy really creeps me out, I must say. Have a bit more respect for yourself. I don't know how many people know that "Islam" literally means "submission." This idea that we're all sinners and the wages of sin are death -- in other words, we all deserve to die -- is self-defeating and sad. I might be nothing in the cosmic sense but my sense of self is by definition personal, and I'm not nothing to myself. I don't understand why people volunteer to consider themselves nothing.

    Furthermore, this idea that I should be as a child -- in essence, turn off my bull**** detector -- sounds more than anything else like a con job.

    "Uh, so why do I need this undercoating again?"
    "Don't think about it. Just let it happen."
    "But..."
    "No questions. Be as a child."
    "But children believe anything you tell them."
    "Exactly."



    Two things. First off, there are many aspects to the Bible that are entirely unfounded in archeological terms. The whole story of Exodus, for example, the escape from Egypt and the wandering in the desert, is entirely unfounded. A team from a major university in Israel spent about 25 years in the desert (part of a hundred years worth of expeditions) and found nothing. Not a thing.

    As for new scientific theories coming along and making the old irrelevant... that's how science works. Science is an attempt to observe and understand the world using the scientific method. Religion on the other hand has no methods. It's not based on observation. It's based on faith.

    What's interesting is how the scientific community tends react to new theories that challenge established precedent. Sometimes it is very reminiscent to how the religious react to challenges to their belief. Part of human nature, I suppose. At the end of the day though, these are people driven by data and the data -- the method -- tends to win out. Not so with the religious, who are not grounded in this way.



    I understand. I know people with similar stories. However, I'm sure you'd agree there are many people who can report similar experiences in their own religion... nevertheless you think (or "realize", more accurately) their religion is a man made creation.
    No beef with you or anything here I am just telling my story - I am coming out of the closet here...

    I come at this with greater naivety than most - I empty my magazine of all my bullets when I tell you this

    I understand there are other stories in other people's backyards I have sat down with many folks who don't have my experiences. I am not living my life insulated from within a silo like so many Christians.

    I don't underestimate or put myself down, and the fact that there is no "proof" of the exodus which I am well aware of does not sway me from my earlier points - the city Jericho was a very recent discovery - the wheel rims laying at the bottom of the Red Sea are a little curious though

    The footprints of faith cannot be re-created scientifically (evidence based faith faith is impossible) which is a great excuse for some not to look deeper into spiritually - I would say there are those who aren't treating the subject of faith whether Islam or Christianity honestly

    Science is doing Judaism and Christianity a favour is all I am saying - "The Big Bang is the Greatest Lunacy ever conceived" IMHO

    The word "submission" "submit" can have a lot of meanings it carries a lot of stigma

    If I make my wife submit that isn't love - if she chooses to "self-donate her love" to me that could be understood as submission

    And I really appreciate your posts in this thread and in the main football forum as well...
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  3. -73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bingit View Post
    That opinion does not line up with the scriptures. The valley of Hinnom is not the eternal hell. It was used as a picture / metaphor for the eternal hell and was known as just that. Jesus did speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals. Hinnom when translated into Greek is Geheena. Why is Jesus using a place that was known for fire that never ceased as a metaphor for hell if he is only talking about death? You may not follow through on things you say, but a Holy God does.

    Time and time again, the Bible references eternal flames and everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46 is one reference: The wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. It is very clear throughout scripture what that eternal punishment is. It is not death, but an eternity in hell.

    Punishment in hell is often defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. The same word is used to describe heaven, God, and punishment in hell. It doesn't make sense to accept that God and heaven are eternal, but not accept that punishment in hell is eternal. Scripture after scripture talks about eternal punishment in a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12) in a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting God or heaven.

    Matthew 7:13 doesn't say eternal when talking about the narrow gate that leads to life either. But we both would agree that life in heaven is eternal right?

    Luke 16:19-30 is another good example. Two men died. One went to heaven while one went to Hades. In verse 24, the rich man says, " I am in tormented in this fire. That is talking about a man who already died. (John 5:28-29) Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Why is God going to call those who have done evil out of their graves ("literal" death) just to condemn them back to a literal death? That doesn't make sense, and it doesn't go along with the Bible's descriptions of hell and eternal punishment.

    I think what it comes down to is us not wanting to believe the Bible’s teaching about eternal torment. It is a scary doctrine. It’s impossible for us to conceive of us doing something so bad that merits everlasting torment described in the Bible. It is a lot easier to just think that we cease to exist. However, that just goes to show just how little we understand about the holiness of God and how seriously he takes sin.
    I don't believe in a life in heaven I don't think you a reading me thoroughly -

    I also believe you miss my OVERALL point that a theology that leaves out or overlooks the marginalized and disenfranchised in society does not follow the natural trajectory of Jesus life, teaching and ministry... The people that stand condemned are the ones that have the answers and resources but refuse to share. Christians by and large condemn the ones who don't have the answers for their sin. Today's Christians are yesteryears Pharisees.... God's covenant with the poor is real, the first shall be last the last shall be first...

    So when you adhere to a theology always remember the poor, the broken hearted the folks who have trust issues, both with man and God.

    I will also add that Heaven in Scripture is God's home -> physical resurrection is the promise for the Christian-> Read Hebrews 11: -> there is a huge difference between the two

    And you make a good point - why resurrect people condemned to die? - I don't no the answer but I have heard a theories that Christians cringe at because they don't really like the idea of God forgiving people

    The bible as given does not teach about eternal torment it is a good ploy to get people to do what you want though..., similar to do this or you get this punishment from your mom or dad... I really appreciate your willingness to write in the forum, why not study a little deeper on the subject rather than relying on modern translations, that miss the spirit of Jesus's intentions...

    Gnashing of teeth is not reference to anything eternal -> it is a reference to being left out to being frustrated that they are not allowed into the collective -> they stand behind the door and they gnash their teeth -> or grind their teeth -> Jesus did not condemn them to death "yet" in the passage but is saying look you want to be on this side of the door!!! And they will say "Look did we not supper with you and listen to your teaching" - but these were the ones who were harassing Jesus for eating with prostitutes..., these outside the doors are Pharisees not Jesus followers
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    I don't underestimate or put myself down, and the fact that there is no "proof" of the exodus which I am well aware of does not sway me from my earlier points - the city Jericho was a very recent discovery - the wheel rims laying at the bottom of the Red Sea are a little curious though
    Not really. The excavations at the ancient city of Troy support some of what's written in the Illiad. That doesn't make Greek gods or goddesses any more or less real.

    Science is doing Judaism and Christianity a favour is all I am saying - "The Big Bang is the Greatest Lunacy ever conceived" IMHO
    It's a theory that fits the facts, that's all. If you have a better theory that fits the facts, I'm all ears.

    The word "submission" "submit" can have a lot of meanings it carries a lot of stigma

    If I make my wife submit that isn't love - if she chooses to "self-donate her love" to me that could be understood as submission
    It's not "self donation" if it's mandated by scripture.



    #freespesh
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  5. -75
    rev kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    Not really. The excavations at the ancient city of Troy support some of what's written in the Illiad. That doesn't make Greek gods or goddesses any more or less real.



    It's a theory that fits the facts, that's all. If you have a better theory that fits the facts, I'm all ears.



    It's not "self donation" if it's mandated by scripture.
    "Facts?" Life on earth does not make a big bang factual -> there is no more evidence of a bang than creation

    Yes God desires love, mandate in your terminology assumes "force" ->

    Do you have kids? If you do - Do you prefer your children obey you because you told them so, because it is a good well thought out decision/path or do you "force" them to do stuff -> and how did that go for you? And why is it any different for God?

    Love is a "self donation" -> It is a choice, otherwise it is force, force and love can't go hand in hand, those who don't want God don't have to include God, (again the soul is not eternal) if you don't choose God you can simply choose themselves (as their god) and die - Certainly many/most Christians side with the eternal hell theme -> I do not, Eternal death, that death is fina, yes in that sense death is eternal I can agree with that, that God happens to know how we all turn out in the end does not change this -> that's what makes him God
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    "Facts?" Life on earth does not make a big bang factual -> there is no more evidence of a bang than creation
    You must be joking.

    The Big Bang might be just one of any number of plausible theories but at least it is based on evidence (galactic inflation, the formation of early galaxies, the cosmic microwave background, etc). Creation is not based on any evidence at all. It is taken as an article of "faith" so if there were any facts -- if any of the ontological arguments were right -- it would render faith irrelevant.

    Do you have kids? If you do - Do you prefer your children obey you because you told them so, because it is a good well thought out decision/path or do you "force" them to do stuff -> and how did that go for you? And why is it any different for God?
    Because I'm an adult, not a child. Why should I accede to a belief system that makes me a child? Why would anyone?

    And it's not like the "punishment" God lays out is in getting grounded or going to the corner, either. The consequences are far more serious. Especially since he knows beforehand what we're going to do. According to your belief system, God creates us knowing full well that he will punish us. He creates us on purpose to punish us.

    Love is a "self donation" -> It is a choice, otherwise it is force, force and love can't go hand in hand, those who don't want God don't have to include God, (again the soul is not eternal) if you don't choose God you can simply choose themselves (as their god) and die - Certainly many/most Christians side with the eternal hell theme -> I do not, Eternal death, that death is fina, yes in that sense death is eternal I can agree with that, that God happens to know how we all turn out in the end does not change this -> that's what makes him God
    It's not a "donation" if you're being forced to do it, not just because all religions contain threats for those who do not obey the tenants of the religion, but because an omniscient creator knew at the moment of creation what our choices would be. Our choices are not really our choices, they are God's choices.

    The beauty of "self donated" love can only exist without an omnipotent creator because it's only in a nondeterministic world that our choices are really ours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevKev
    I was four when I had an encounter with God that I feel likely changed my life trajectory, I was naÔve and I could be accused of being brain-washed. Now in my mid forty's I can't scientifically explain my spiritual experiences they are mine alone - to ignore them would be to live untrue to myself.
    I just want to point out that religious experiences can be manufactured and induced. They can be brought about in a number of ways (meditation, fasting, drugs, near death experiences, and so forth), but it is more a by-product of brain chemistry rather than anything external. You, being a westerner, interpret the experience based on myths and nomenclature that you were already familiar with.

    Like Walrus said, you are far from the first person on the planet to have reported religious experiences, and Christians aren't the only religious people reportedly having these types of divine experiences. So, either everyone else is lying about their experience, or something else is afoot here.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever taken Psilocybin, but if you are ever able to get your hands on some, take about five grams of the stuff in silent darkness and let us know how that compares.

    I won’t inundate you with pages upon pages of research on the matter, but there’s a ton of it out there. At the very least, you should think about it as a possible explanation to your mystical experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wvdolphan View Post
    id also like to take this opportunity to come out and say......... Italian foods are my favorite. Im a big fan of lasagna. I know that is really important to how well i post and my role here at fh. I also do not like seafood.
    you hate seafood! Seafoodphobe! Seafood bigot!
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  9. -79
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    1972 Dolphins Logo1972 Dolphins LogoDolphin
    Science and Spirituality are not competing ideas, they serve different purposes. The problem is with religion, which seems to struggle against science, for some reason. And not only does religion struggle with things like science, it struggles with itself. All the religions have competed with each other and many have tried to destroy each other. This alone should tell you, something is wrong, at it's core.

    If the bible or the koran or the talmud were critical items God felt we needed, not only for here but for the afterlife...he would have handed it to us from day one. After all, if we supposedly did not evolve from animals, then we came here fully capable of reading and writing and speaking and communicating and understanding complex ideas. There's no explanation for why this is. Someone might say, it's to test us, or winnow out the weak or unfit, like a spiritual survival of the fittest. But that doesn't make sense because 1.) The documents did show up at some point, and 2) All religions circle back around from their starting point as the chosen ones, to be inclusive of all people on earth, 100 percent of them, if they go along with the doctrine. This defeats the purposes of spiritual darwinism. Technically, we can all be saved if we just accept whichever doctrine is placed in front of us, in whatever language.

    Clearly, religion is a product of civilization, and nothing else. We should keep that in mind, when it gets unwieldy. We'll always have spirituality, and there will always be concepts of good and evil, and of creation, because it's so innate. We inherently feel and know, that love and forgiveness is good, and feels free and light, while holding a grudge, hating, judging, and controlling other people feels constrained, feels like a headache and a stomachache. Furthermore, the more someone is neglected and abused, the more likely they are to lose the ability the trust, love, forgive, and help others. This is not the fault of the person, but nonetheless if they continue to go in that direction they will just continue to harden and suffer, and inevitably export that suffering onto innocent people, like a predator. This exporting is what we call evil, and rightly so.

    Healing, is what is needed for suffering. We get that from nature, from spirituality, from meditation, sometimes from religion, and we get it from our loved ones. This is all transpiring on earth, in this life. After death, I don't believe there is suffering, regardless of what any religion says. I don't believe in hell or hades for individual people. And if you take the worst human being on earth, he doesn't deserve forever torture, because he is just human, and we helped make him into what he was. Even Jesus said on the cross, forgive them, they know not what they do.

    What I do think though, is that evil should be rejected, exiled and separated from what is good. Good and evil intermingle everywhere, and inside ourselves. What I believe, is that upon death, our elements are separated...and what is good will continue on, and the corrupted bits, the evil slivers, are pulled out and sent in another direction. So maybe that's what hell is, a dumping ground of radioactive, corrupted and discarded pieces of us. That's different than our cognitive selves.

    This is just what I feel, and I've had dreams also in which I've found peace and surprisingly embraced (hugged) people who were identified as evil, and found they were not, they were just in torment.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HoneyB View Post
    What I do think though, is that evil should be rejected, exiled and separated from what is good. Good and evil intermingle everywhere, and inside ourselves. What I believe, is that upon death, our elements are separated...and what is good will continue on, and the corrupted bits, the evil slivers, are pulled out and sent in another direction. So maybe that's what hell is, a dumping ground of radioactive, corrupted and discarded pieces of us. That's different than our cognitive selves.
    Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post in any way, but it sort of reminded me about something Alan Watts said during a tribute to Carl Jung.

    …First of all, I want to call attention to one fundamental principle that underlay all his work and that was most extraordinarily exemplified in Jung himself as a person, and this is what I would call his recognition of the polarity of life. That is to say, his resistance to what is to my mind the disastrous and absurd hypothesis that there is in this universe a radical and absolute conflict between good and evil, light and darkness, that can never never never be harmonized.

    This conflict has come up to us in a very vivid way with the trial of Adolf Eichmann, and with Arthur Koestler's passionate denunciation of any sort of philosophy of life, and he has in mind particular the eastern philosophies like Buddhism and Hinduism, which so slur the absolute differences between good and evil, that in their names one could justify the sort of crimes which were committed in the concentration camps of Germany. And it's interesting, certain people accused Jung also of Nazi sympathies because he too would not subscribe to the absolute state of a war between good and evil going down to the very roots of the universe.

    Obviously when certain crimes are committed and catastrophes occur, human emotions are deeply and rightly aroused, and I would for myself say, that were I in any situation where an Eichmann was operating, I would be roused to a degree of fury that I can hardly imagine in my present existence, but I know it would come out from me. I would oppose those sort of villainies with all the energy that I have, and if I was trapped in such a situation I would fight it till the end; but at the same time I would recognize the relativity of my own emotional involvement. I would know that I was fighting a man like Eichmann in the same way, shall we say, as spider and a wasp; insects that naturally prey upon one another and fight one another do so, but as a human being I would not be able to regard my adversary as a metaphysical devil. That is to say as one who represented the principle of absolute and unresolvable evil. And I think this is the most important thing in Jung, that he was able to point out that to the degree you condemn others and find evil in others, you are to that degree unconscious of the same thing in yourself, or at least of the potentiality of it. There can be Eichmann’s and Hitler’s and Himmler’s just because there are people who are unconscious of their own dark sides, and they project that darkness outward into, say, Jews or communists or whatever the enemy may be, and say there is the darkness, it is not in me, and therefore because the darkness is not in me I am justified in annihilating the enemy, whether it be with atom bombs or gas chambers or what not, but to the degree that a person becomes conscious that the evil is as much in himself as in the other, to this same degree he is not likely to project it onto some scapegoat, and commit the most criminal acts of violence upon other people. Now this is to my mind the primary thing that Jung saw; that in order to admit and really accept and understand the evil in oneself, one had to be able to do it without being an enemy to it. As he put it, you had to accept your own dark side, and he had this preeminently in his own character…
    2:40-8:30
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