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Thread: I am coming out of the closet.... this is hard to do but....

  1. -71
    Bingit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rev kev View Post
    Resurrection is literal the pictures/metaphors of hell we are given are horrible and devastating -> being separated from God and I don't want to go there -> in my opinion hell is death, it is eternal in the sense it is final and yes it comes after judgment

    Gehenna is still a place in Jerusalem, it is not eternal hell, there is absolutely no missing this, it became a place known for shame and disobedience. Jesus did not call it hell modern translators swayed the church by calling it "hell"

    Again - Death can be and may be complete and eternal separation from God - it doesn't require God to torture people for eternity

    Your proof texts are not new to me, the vernacular of the day was Greek, why wouldn't Jesus speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals? When I am disciplining my children I also speak in some rather colourful vernacular and I don't always follow through...



    Again we have a literal resurrection we don't have a literal "hell" we have Jesus preaching "Narrow is the road that leads to life wide the path is the path of destruction" (note it doesn't say eternal) Matthew 7:13

    Mark 9:43 -> translates cast into Gehinnom "to go away to the Gehenna, to the fire" the unquenchable fire is Gehenna not hell (this is one of the 11 times Jesus used the reference to Gehenna)

    Jesus didn't use the word hell or hades here??? I find it odd what translators are asking us to swallow

    BTW I have read stories from the time period of Jonathon Edwards that make fun of Jonathon Edwards plagiarizing Dante - which is telling

    The good news is that God has not only told us everything we need to know about hell, but also tells us everything we need to know on how to avoid it through the merits of Christ

    No argument there I think we should avoid "literal" death and turn to Christ for "literal" life
    That opinion does not line up with the scriptures. The valley of Hinnom is not the eternal hell. It was used as a picture / metaphor for the eternal hell and was known as just that. Jesus did speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals. Hinnom when translated into Greek is Geheena. Why is Jesus using a place that was known for fire that never ceased as a metaphor for hell if he is only talking about death? You may not follow through on things you say, but a Holy God does.

    Time and time again, the Bible references eternal flames and everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46 is one reference: The wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. It is very clear throughout scripture what that eternal punishment is. It is not death, but an eternity in hell.

    Punishment in hell is often defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. The same word is used to describe heaven, God, and punishment in hell. It doesn't make sense to accept that God and heaven are eternal, but not accept that punishment in hell is eternal. Scripture after scripture talks about eternal punishment in a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12) in a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting God or heaven.

    Matthew 7:13 doesn't say eternal when talking about the narrow gate that leads to life either. But we both would agree that life in heaven is eternal right?

    Luke 16:19-30 is another good example. Two men died. One went to heaven while one went to Hades. In verse 24, the rich man says, " I am in tormented in this fire. That is talking about a man who already died. (John 5:28-29) Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come outóthose who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Why is God going to call those who have done evil out of their graves ("literal" death) just to condemn them back to a literal death? That doesn't make sense, and it doesn't go along with the Bible's descriptions of hell and eternal punishment.

    I think what it comes down to is us not wanting to believe the Bibleís teaching about eternal torment. It is a scary doctrine. Itís impossible for us to conceive of us doing something so bad that merits everlasting torment described in the Bible. It is a lot easier to just think that we cease to exist. However, that just goes to show just how little we understand about the holiness of God and how seriously he takes sin.
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  2. -72
    rev kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWalrus View Post
    It's not a terminology issue, imo. Either God knows what we're going to do or he doesn't. If he knows we're going to do it, then we're going to do it. We don't have the "freedom" to do otherwise, regardless of the fact that we're unaware it's a fait accompli. And he has known since the beginning of time, regardless of how "God" perceives time.

    Why presume that things that you know don't make sense are simply beyond your perception? The alternative -- that it doesn't make sense because it was invented -- is much simpler. In other words, the problem doesn't have to be you. Why give every logical fallacy or nonsensical proposition a get out of jail free card by assuming that it's always your fault because you're not able to perceive as God does.



    Good question. It's part of the reason I don't think the idea of an omniscient Creator God is either true or desirable.



    This part of Christian philosophy really creeps me out, I must say. Have a bit more respect for yourself. I don't know how many people know that "Islam" literally means "submission." This idea that we're all sinners and the wages of sin are death -- in other words, we all deserve to die -- is self-defeating and sad. I might be nothing in the cosmic sense but my sense of self is by definition personal, and I'm not nothing to myself. I don't understand why people volunteer to consider themselves nothing.

    Furthermore, this idea that I should be as a child -- in essence, turn off my bull**** detector -- sounds more than anything else like a con job.

    "Uh, so why do I need this undercoating again?"
    "Don't think about it. Just let it happen."
    "But..."
    "No questions. Be as a child."
    "But children believe anything you tell them."
    "Exactly."



    Two things. First off, there are many aspects to the Bible that are entirely unfounded in archeological terms. The whole story of Exodus, for example, the escape from Egypt and the wandering in the desert, is entirely unfounded. A team from a major university in Israel spent about 25 years in the desert (part of a hundred years worth of expeditions) and found nothing. Not a thing.

    As for new scientific theories coming along and making the old irrelevant... that's how science works. Science is an attempt to observe and understand the world using the scientific method. Religion on the other hand has no methods. It's not based on observation. It's based on faith.

    What's interesting is how the scientific community tends react to new theories that challenge established precedent. Sometimes it is very reminiscent to how the religious react to challenges to their belief. Part of human nature, I suppose. At the end of the day though, these are people driven by data and the data -- the method -- tends to win out. Not so with the religious, who are not grounded in this way.



    I understand. I know people with similar stories. However, I'm sure you'd agree there are many people who can report similar experiences in their own religion... nevertheless you think (or "realize", more accurately) their religion is a man made creation.
    No beef with you or anything here I am just telling my story - I am coming out of the closet here...

    I come at this with greater naivety than most - I empty my magazine of all my bullets when I tell you this

    I understand there are other stories in other people's backyards I have sat down with many folks who don't have my experiences. I am not living my life insulated from within a silo like so many Christians.

    I don't underestimate or put myself down, and the fact that there is no "proof" of the exodus which I am well aware of does not sway me from my earlier points - the city Jericho was a very recent discovery - the wheel rims laying at the bottom of the Red Sea are a little curious though

    The footprints of faith cannot be re-created scientifically (evidence based faith faith is impossible) which is a great excuse for some not to look deeper into spiritually - I would say there are those who aren't treating the subject of faith whether Islam or Christianity honestly

    Science is doing Judaism and Christianity a favour is all I am saying - "The Big Bang is the Greatest Lunacy ever conceived" IMHO

    The word "submission" "submit" can have a lot of meanings it carries a lot of stigma

    If I make my wife submit that isn't love - if she chooses to "self-donate her love" to me that could be understood as submission

    And I really appreciate your posts in this thread and in the main football forum as well...
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    rev kev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bingit View Post
    That opinion does not line up with the scriptures. The valley of Hinnom is not the eternal hell. It was used as a picture / metaphor for the eternal hell and was known as just that. Jesus did speak in the vernacular that made sense to the locals. Hinnom when translated into Greek is Geheena. Why is Jesus using a place that was known for fire that never ceased as a metaphor for hell if he is only talking about death? You may not follow through on things you say, but a Holy God does.

    Time and time again, the Bible references eternal flames and everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46 is one reference: The wicked will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. It is very clear throughout scripture what that eternal punishment is. It is not death, but an eternity in hell.

    Punishment in hell is often defined by the word aionios, which is the word eternal or everlasting. The same word is used to describe heaven, God, and punishment in hell. It doesn't make sense to accept that God and heaven are eternal, but not accept that punishment in hell is eternal. Scripture after scripture talks about eternal punishment in a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12) in a fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42, 50) of unquenchable fires. If there is not an everlasting hell, then there is not an everlasting God or heaven.

    Matthew 7:13 doesn't say eternal when talking about the narrow gate that leads to life either. But we both would agree that life in heaven is eternal right?

    Luke 16:19-30 is another good example. Two men died. One went to heaven while one went to Hades. In verse 24, the rich man says, " I am in tormented in this fire. That is talking about a man who already died. (John 5:28-29) Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

    Why is God going to call those who have done evil out of their graves ("literal" death) just to condemn them back to a literal death? That doesn't make sense, and it doesn't go along with the Bible's descriptions of hell and eternal punishment.

    I think what it comes down to is us not wanting to believe the Bible’s teaching about eternal torment. It is a scary doctrine. It’s impossible for us to conceive of us doing something so bad that merits everlasting torment described in the Bible. It is a lot easier to just think that we cease to exist. However, that just goes to show just how little we understand about the holiness of God and how seriously he takes sin.
    I don't believe in a life in heaven I don't think you a reading me thoroughly -

    I also believe you miss my OVERALL point that a theology that leaves out or overlooks the marginalized and disenfranchised in society does not follow the natural trajectory of Jesus life, teaching and ministry... The people that stand condemned are the ones that have the answers and resources but refuse to share. Christians by and large condemn the ones who don't have the answers for their sin. Today's Christians are yesteryears Pharisees.... God's covenant with the poor is real, the first shall be last the last shall be first...

    So when you adhere to a theology always remember the poor, the broken hearted the folks who have trust issues, both with man and God.

    I will also add that Heaven in Scripture is God's home -> physical resurrection is the promise for the Christian-> Read Hebrews 11: -> there is a huge difference between the two

    And you make a good point - why resurrect people condemned to die? - I don't no the answer but I have heard a theories that Christians cringe at because they don't really like the idea of God forgiving people

    The bible as given does not teach about eternal torment it is a good ploy to get people to do what you want though..., similar to do this or you get this punishment from your mom or dad... I really appreciate your willingness to write in the forum, why not study a little deeper on the subject rather than relying on modern translations, that miss the spirit of Jesus's intentions...

    Gnashing of teeth is not reference to anything eternal -> it is a reference to being left out to being frustrated that they are not allowed into the collective -> they stand behind the door and they gnash their teeth -> or grind their teeth -> Jesus did not condemn them to death "yet" in the passage but is saying look you want to be on this side of the door!!! And they will say "Look did we not supper with you and listen to your teaching" - but these were the ones who were harassing Jesus for eating with prostitutes..., these outside the doors are Pharisees not Jesus followers
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