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Thread: Johnny Manziel Critics

  1. -11
    ckparrothead's Avatar
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    I just don't agree with that at all.

    Johnny Manziel can talk a big game about being a diligent worker and living/breathing the game, but when it comes time to show up to the most prestigious passing camp in existence for an experience most quarterbacks would kill to be invited to, he shows up drunk/hungover and gets kicked out of it. That's his commitment level.

    And there's a lot more sh-t under the surface down there at College Station that people haven't heard of. And he knows it. And he knows that the scouts know it. That's why he has to continue to talk a big game about how college was college and NOW it's time to get serious. He said that, not me. That was his message, carefully crafted, at the NFL Combine.

    Except it doesn't work like that. You don't develop a work ethic overnight. You don't just flip the on switch and suddenly you're a professional. That's something you have to have been working at for years, tediously attempting to perfect. Being a professional is like any other skill. It's like any other trade. You have to work at it. The weak ones say well NOW I'm going to do it. No big. I wasn't doing it before but now it counts.

    Yes the man is going to have to change his game in order to play in the NFL. Not because the game demands quarterbacks stay in the pocket and everyone be Tom Brady. Not at all. He's going to have to change because *he* can't play that way, because of *his* shortcomings. He's tiny, his body has ALREADY taken on punishment and a bunch of injuries, and that's only going to get worse when the bodies get bigger and more explosive and the hits can knock you unconscious to where you wake up playing baseball. He's got an average arm. He's got average accuracy. He's got 4.6 speed, and that was something I could have and did in fact tell people BEFORE he ran in Indianapolis even back when he was telling people he hadn't run a 40 yard dash in like 3 or 4 years.

    Maybe he can find a way to adapt. It wouldn't shock me. I don't have him on the "do not draft" list. But I don't have him with the same grade I put on Russell Wilson either (mid to high 2nd round). I don't think it's a great bet asking players with his off field character issues to adapt and accept change with the type of aplomb of an NFL quarterback.
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  2. -12
    TruePoizon's Avatar
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    I never understood the hype. He seems very self centered, spoiled little brat. A diva if you ask me.
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  3. -13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    I just don't agree with that at all.

    Johnny Manziel can talk a big game about being a diligent worker and living/breathing the game, but when it comes time to show up to the most prestigious passing camp in existence for an experience most quarterbacks would kill to be invited to, he shows up drunk/hungover and gets kicked out of it. That's his commitment level.

    And there's a lot more sh-t under the surface down there at College Station that people haven't heard of. And he knows it. And he knows that the scouts know it. That's why he has to continue to talk a big game about how college was college and NOW it's time to get serious. He said that, not me. That was his message, carefully crafted, at the NFL Combine.

    Except it doesn't work like that. You don't develop a work ethic overnight. You don't just flip the on switch and suddenly you're a professional. That's something you have to have been working at for years, tediously attempting to perfect. Being a professional is like any other skill. It's like any other trade. You have to work at it. The weak ones say well NOW I'm going to do it. No big. I wasn't doing it before but now it counts.

    Yes the man is going to have to change his game in order to play in the NFL. Not because the game demands quarterbacks stay in the pocket and everyone be Tom Brady. Not at all. He's going to have to change because *he* can't play that way, because of *his* shortcomings. He's tiny, his body has ALREADY taken on punishment and a bunch of injuries, and that's only going to get worse when the bodies get bigger and more explosive and the hits can knock you unconscious to where you wake up playing baseball. He's got an average arm. He's got average accuracy. He's got 4.6 speed, and that was something I could have and did in fact tell people BEFORE he ran in Indianapolis even back when he was telling people he hadn't run a 40 yard dash in like 3 or 4 years.

    Maybe he can find a way to adapt. It wouldn't shock me. I don't have him on the "do not draft" list. But I don't have him with the same grade I put on Russell Wilson either (mid to high 2nd round). I don't think it's a great bet asking players with his off field character issues to adapt and accept change with the type of aplomb of an NFL quarterback.
    You lost me at average accuracy.
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  4. -14
    ckparrothead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j-off-her-doll View Post
    You lost me at average accuracy.
    For the level of prospect we're talking about. His percentage of overthrows/underthrows/wide throws is a lot higher than the other prospects up at the top, I believe.
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  5. -15
    j-off-her-doll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    For the level of prospect we're talking about. His percentage of overthrows/underthrows/wide throws is a lot higher than the other prospects up at the top, I believe.
    That's fair enough. I don't see it that way. I saw a guy who consistently put the ball in the perfect spot on difficult throws. At the next level, he has to learn to take the easy throw more often, but I think it's easier to teach that than it is to teach someone to throw the ball down the field. I can't say these statistics are 100% correct, but they match what I've seen, and according to them, Manziel completed 73.5% of his passes from inside the pocket (best of all AQ QB's) for a YPA of 9.7. Keeping in mind that he rarely had the threat of a running game - given the horrible D that he played with (which allowed 2,890 rushing yards - over 200 yards 9 times and over 300 yards twice) - and that he played in the SEC, it's even more impressive.

    For my money, his accuracy beyond 10 yards is about as good as it gets - easily the best of the QB's in this draft.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/po...johnny-manziel

    http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...conundrum?pg=1
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  6. -16
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    Kid’s gonna be a star.

    George Whitfield said this guy’s heart is as big as a Toyota, and I believe him. Easily one of the most psycho competitors I’ve seen in my short time watching football. I don’t think a guy with that big of a flame in his heart to win is just going to rest on his laurels. I mean, if you take his pro-day into consideration, even some of his harshest critics like Ron Jaworksi were pretty much in agreement when they said they saw vast improvements in his mechanics, velocity, etc. “George Whitfield has done a terrific job of coaching him up. I did not see those flaws in mechanics [at his pro day]. I saw him stand on his back foot, driving the football. Throwing the football with velocity and accuracy.” I’d also think most people would agree that even after he won the Heisman his freshman season he came back an even better player for his sophomore campaign. So, I personally don’t share Zimmer’s concerns about this guy’s desire to improve his skills.

    I also don’t think he has to dramatically change his play style, either. He just needs to learn to get his eight yards and get down or out of bounds. Russell Wilson ran for over five-hundred yards last year while taking very little punishment, and it’s because he is absolutely deft at avoiding contact and living to fight another day. You could certainly question his instincts about protecting himself when the bullets start flying, but I think the kid’s smart enough that I’d take my chances. Mike Tomlin uses a phrase I really like which is “I’d rather say woah than sic’ em”, so I think most coaches would be willing to work with him on that. Also, like Wilson, he has huge hands and size fifteen shoes; which in and of itself means nothing, but it does go to show he’s not your typical six-footer.

    I also think he gets a raw deal on his pure throwing ability. Mayock attended his pro-day in person and said without question he has the quickest release and most velocity out of any Quarterback in this draft. Also said he’s a better natural thrower than both Wilson and Kaepernick. "I think he's a better thrower than either (Colin) Kaepernick or Russell Wilson were when they came out (of college)," Mayock said. "This was the most different evaluation I've ever done. At the end of it, you just trust your gut."

    Personally, I don’t know what games you’re watching if you would take Bortles or Bridgewater over this kid. Sometimes I think these NFL types out-smart themselves. I’ll take Johnny Swag every single time over a dude who shrinks under the Pro-Day pressure of having all those scouts and GMs watching your every throw. Even worse than that, though, were Bridgewater’s lame excuses afterwards. I mean, if you want to blame your gloves then whatever, but don’t come back a few days later and say Kentucky’s cold weather affected you because you’ve been throwing in Florida. You were INSIDE A DOME, Teddy. No one wants to hear that, especially not a team in a cold weather city.
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  7. -17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVDolphan View Post
    On the other hand, when Bob Griffin entered the draft, NOBODY in the media was saying any of this stuff. I was the one of the few saying I wouldnt draft him at all. There were obvious red flags about his character that Awsi pointed out on this forum, but the media painted Griffin as this perfect gentleman. Not only are these things reversed on these two players, Manziel is actually a good player whereas Bob Griffin is terrible. I wonder why it is that nobody in the media would say anything but pleasant stuff about Griffin, yet they are quick to bash Manziel?
    Is the implication here that Manziel is being criticized because he's white while Griffin wasn't because he's black?
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  8. -18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob19 View Post
    Kid’s gonna be a star.

    George Whitfield said this guy’s heart is as big as a Toyota, and I believe him. Easily one of the most psycho competitors I’ve seen in my short time watching football. I don’t think a guy with that big of a flame in his heart to win is just going to rest on his laurels. I mean, if you take his pro-day into consideration, even some of his harshest critics like Ron Jaworksi were pretty much in agreement when they said they saw vast improvements in his mechanics, velocity, etc. “George Whitfield has done a terrific job of coaching him up. I did not see those flaws in mechanics [at his pro day]. I saw him stand on his back foot, driving the football. Throwing the football with velocity and accuracy.” I’d also think most people would agree that even after he won the Heisman his freshman season he came back an even better player for his sophomore campaign. So, I personally don’t share Zimmer’s concerns about this guy’s desire to improve his skills.

    I also don’t think he has to dramatically change his play style, either. He just needs to learn to get his eight yards and get down or out of bounds. Russell Wilson ran for over five-hundred yards last year while taking very little punishment, and it’s because he is absolutely deft at avoiding contact and living to fight another day. You could certainly question his instincts about protecting himself when the bullets start flying, but I think the kid’s smart enough that I’d take my chances. Mike Tomlin uses a phrase I really like which is “I’d rather say woah than sic’ em”, so I think most coaches would be willing to work with him on that. Also, like Wilson, he has huge hands and size fifteen shoes; which in and of itself means nothing, but it does go to show he’s not your typical six-footer.

    I also think he gets a raw deal on his pure throwing ability. Mayock attended his pro-day in person and said without question he has the quickest release and most velocity out of any Quarterback in this draft. Also said he’s a better natural thrower than both Wilson and Kaepernick. "I think he's a better thrower than either (Colin) Kaepernick or Russell Wilson were when they came out (of college)," Mayock said. "This was the most different evaluation I've ever done. At the end of it, you just trust your gut."

    Personally, I don’t know what games you’re watching if you would take Bortles or Bridgewater over this kid. Sometimes I think these NFL types out-smart themselves. I’ll take Johnny Swag every single time over a dude who shrinks under the Pro-Day pressure of having all those scouts and GMs watching your every throw. Even worse than that, though, were Bridgewater’s lame excuses afterwards. I mean, if you want to blame your gloves then whatever, but don’t come back a few days later and say Kentucky’s cold weather affected you because you’ve been throwing in Florida. You were INSIDE A DOME, Teddy. No one wants to hear that, especially not a team in a cold weather city.
    I'm not a Manziel hater - he's an amazing college QB, but the issue is if that transfers to the next level. Frankly I don't think it will. He will be overdrafted and be a first rounder, but frankly I don't think he's better than third round in this super-draft, and probably on projection should be lower than that.

    As for his mechanics: he has different release points for whatever distance he's throwing, and his deeper balls just die at the end - you may think these are minor things but they will be ruthlessly exposed at the next level. His footwork isn't great but it has definitely got better, the other issues I just don't think are correctable. He just doesn't have a cannon for an arm and has compensated via poor technique.

    His competitive streak: yes he's definitely competitive - but that doesn't mean he will make it in the NFL - there are plenty more college players who are probably much more competitive who will never even make a practice squad in the NFL, just because they don't have the talent.

    His play style: I don't really know what to say about this - if you don't think he has to dramatically change his play style you just aren't seeing the same things I see about his play. His play needs a very dramatic overhaul or his stay in the NFL will be an extremely short one, for the fact alone he will face significant injury issues, let alone anything else (ie his progressions etc).

    People keep on mentioning Wilson and Brees in relation to Manziel but they are the exception that proves the rule - if you are a bigger QB you have a greater chance to succeed, that's one reason why Bortles is on top of most QB draft boards for this draft. Bortles talents (size, arm strength etc) just project better to the next level, add to the fact he's been playing in an NFL style offence the last two years - he's basically just a much safer bet than Manziel. Yes Manziel is the better college player, but that doesn't mean Johnny Football will be the better NFL player. As for Bridgewater - he's definitely a better prospect than Manziel, would not be surprised if Manziel goes earlier in the draft however.

    Anyway, its an interesting argument, end of the day we aren't really going to know who will be better for at least another 4 years or so - however I will point out the obvious fact there have been a number of stunning college QBs whose talents didn't transfer to the NFL. The list of NFL QB busts is littered with Heisman Trophy winners and National Championship winners - frankly in my view Manziel will be yet another bust and as I've said on here once before, I pity the team that overdrafts him in the first round, or even the second for that matter.
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  9. -19
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    Case Keenum 2.0, in every way, except Keenum has a much better deep ball, but is less accurate on the short and mid range stuff.

    Other than that, those two are so freaking similar it's sickening.
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  10. -20
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    I don't think he's similar to Keenum at all. Keenum was in college 6 years before he was really effective running Sumlin's offense. He was a 25 year old playing against C-USA defenses. Manziel dominated NFL caliber players as a 20 year old redshirt freshman on his way to being the first freshman to ever win a Heisman Trophy. He actually improved as a passer last year.

    The big hands are a legitimate key here. He has hands bigger than most prototypical NFL QB's.

    Manziel cemented himself as one of the best college football players of all time in 2 years. Keenum isn't even in Manziel's class. He's in Kliff Kingsbury's class. Manziel can make every throw required to play at the next level. Keenum never had that level of arm strength.
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