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Thread: Johnny Manziel Critics

  1. -31
    TedSlimmJr's Avatar
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    Perhaps once he realizes that he's an investment, he'll change his style. But there's no need to do that in college.

    His style is why Texas A&M was relevant in the SEC. He had to play that way to overcome a putrid defense every week that couldn't stop anybody and gives up nearly 40 points per game. He can't just manage the game from the pocket and allow his defense and running game to dominate opponents the way A.J. McCarron could. Manziel had to lay it all on the line every week.

    To me that's the beauty of college football, and why I enjoy it so much more than the watered down NFL. Nobody knows what he'll do as a professional, nor does it matter to me. Manziel was one of the most enjoyable to watch that has ever put on cleats. He'll always have that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post
    He'll have to learn how to give himself up. That's a different subject entirely. Quarterbacks get hurt all the time staying in the pocket.... injuries are unpredictable. He's been hit by plenty of 250 pound linebackers that are on their way to the NFL.

    By the way, I'm on record already stating that I'm not at all convinced that he's going to be the savior of any franchise. I've only felt that way about 2 or 3 QB's in the last decade. However, anybody that thinks he can't play in the NFL is a fool. Teams are trotting out QB's every week that aren't as talented as Manziel. People vastly overrate the talent in the NFL to begin with. There's not that many elite players in the NFL... the majority of them are borderline professionals themselves.

    Again, the point is that some of the knocks on him are legitimate, some are simply blowing smoke. Some of the comparisons made for him are insulting, because they don't account for anything he accomplished in college. Most of which hadn't been done before.
    I don't think some of what you have said is actually true. The NFL represents some of the absolute cream of the crop athletes alive on this Earth - to even make it to an NFL roster is a massive achievement and even some of those on practice squads are freakish athletes. When you see a player who stands out from a run-of-the-mill NFL standard you are seeing someone of awesome capability, because to rise above that standard of athlete shows truly outstanding quality and ability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXwarXx View Post
    Keenum had better production than him, maybe some of the best production in college football history. If accomplishments and production meant anything, he wouldn't of went undrafted.

    Every time someone gets in a debate about Manziel, it's he has the "it" factor, big hands, big feet, he's a winner, production, etc etc. It's all the stuff you say about a player when they lack real good things to talk about.

    Let's be honest here, he's a undersized qb, who's not that fast, for the NFL he has a average arm at best, he bails out of the pocket for no reason, and puts himself in trouble (ps good luck breaking that habit) he takes very hard hits, and this is all behind a oline that could protect him as well as he will ever be protected.

    His stats against the blitz and pressure are god awful. Seriously when he gets to the NFL, this guy is going to be in trouble. I don't see any way around it.

    And I'm not even getting to off field stuff where this guy does WTF he wants anyway. Could you imagine the difference in how people would talk about Manziel....... If he was black?
    That's an end-thread post right there. Pretty much bang on with no rebuttal possible. Well done sir.
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    my biggest issue with manziels game is i dont' think he reads coverage all that well...i see a lot of one read and take off stuff and a lot of just throw it up there to evans and tell him to go get it despite the coverage being played...you wont get away with that kind of stuff in the pros...
    hoops scoops 2012 season ..."in 2014 ryan tannehill etches his name in stone amongst the games elite qbs"..."ryan tannehill and andrew luck will carry the afc for the next decade plus the way peyton manning and tom brady have this last decade plus"
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    TedSlimmJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungover View Post
    I don't think some of what you have said is actually true. The NFL represents some of the absolute cream of the crop athletes alive on this Earth - to even make it to an NFL roster is a massive achievement and even some of those on practice squads are freakish athletes. When you see a player who stands out from a run-of-the-mill NFL standard you are seeing someone of awesome capability, because to rise above that standard of athlete shows truly outstanding quality and ability.

    It's absolutely true. The majority of the players in the NFL are borderline professionals. That's why teams are always churning the bottom of their 53 man roster. They're always looking for upgrades. There's players starting all over the place in the NFL that wouldn't start on some college teams. For example, I'd guarantee you the Miami Dolphins haven't had a single player in their secondary the past 5 years that would've started at Alabama over Mark Barron, Robert Lester, Clinton-Dix, Dre Kirkpatrick, Dee Milliner, Kareem Jackson, and Javier Arenas.

    ---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xXwarXx View Post
    Keenum had better production than him, maybe some of the best production in college football history. If accomplishments and production meant anything, he wouldn't of went undrafted.

    Every time someone gets in a debate about Manziel, it's he has the "it" factor, big hands, big feet, he's a winner, production, etc etc. It's all the stuff you say about a player when they lack real good things to talk about.

    Let's be honest here, he's a undersized qb, who's not that fast, for the NFL he has a average arm at best, he bails out of the pocket for no reason, and puts himself in trouble (ps good luck breaking that habit) he takes very hard hits, and this is all behind a oline that could protect him as well as he will ever be protected.

    His stats against the blitz and pressure are god awful. Seriously when he gets to the NFL, this guy is going to be in trouble. I don't see any way around it.

    And I'm not even getting to off field stuff where this guy does WTF he wants anyway. Could you imagine the difference in how people would talk about Manziel....... If he was black?


    He doesn't leave the pocket for no reason... I assure you there's a reason. Blaine Gabbert left the pocket for no reason... hew threw with his eyes closed from inside the pocket.

    Keenum went undrafted and Manziel will be a 1st rounder because there's a clear difference in talent.

    There's also a difference between production in C-USA, and production in the SEC. That difference in talent is why one was in C-USA and the other in the SEC to begin with. It's just not a good comparison.
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    ^ ^ Dee Milliner was the consensus no. 1 CB in last years draft and outstanding college corner, how did that help him versus the Fins last year? Benched what was it, three times in the one game? He looked lost in the NFL last year.

    The level between college and the NFL is massive - the reason there is churn there at the bottom of rosters is because they are choosing between one freakish athlete and another, and the reason why there are so many busts in the NFL. You can't just be a freakish athlete - you have to have something more that that, either an extra dimension of athletic freakishness or some other game-oriented talent.
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    I'm not about to compare the man to Case Keenum. I think that's folly. But I don't think he's the NFL prospect Russell Wilson was, either. Perhaps I rated Russell Wilson too low as a prospect (solid mid to high 2nd round). The way Wilson has played he should have been a #1 overall. But I also feel like if another Russell Wilson came out I would probably rate him about the same as I did Russell Wilson himself. And if Johnny Manziel is not the prospect Wilson was then why should he get a higher grade?

    Manziel WILL have to give himself up more in some situations...but I'm not sure it will help. First off with his style I'm not sure he'll do it. I'm not sure he's actually capable of it. I don't think he sees the field and sees timing-based reads from inside the pocket very well, and that's going to give him tendencies that put him out there as a raw steak for the lions on the defensive line.

    Here's a video which really addresses that point about vision within the pocket for me:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...s-draft-boards

    I do think Johnny leaves the pocket for no reason at times. Or rather he holds onto the football for an inordinate amount of time, which in turn forces him to leave the pocket under duress, for no good reason. Evaluating Mike Evans has been difficult at times because Evans seems to have a knack for getting open in his breaks with correct timing and you'd like to see him finish some of those catches and transition to RAC the way an NFL player will need to, but Manziel just doesn't see him or hit him. He waits and waits, gets his guys into scramble drills, climbs up or out of the pocket and searches for wide open windows into which to throw.

    Again these are tendencies he'll have to break at the next level and maybe he just gets there and changes. Maybe it'll be easy. As Awsi said maybe the talent will just find a way.

    But when you consider his significant off field issues and attitude problems, I don't think so. When the going gets tough (and it *will* get tough, at some point), I don't know that he's going to throw himself body and soul into the effort to move away from the player he was that got him the Heisman and all this acclaim in college. And he's going to have NO SHORTAGE of people whispering in his ear that it's his coaches, not him, that need to change. That he needs to get back to being "Johnny Football" and that his real problem, the REAL reason he's not succeeding in the NFL (even if just temporarily), is because he's not being "himself".

    Then he'll go back to the old habits. And he'll get K.I.A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungover View Post
    ^ ^ Dee Milliner was the consensus no. 1 CB in last years draft and outstanding college corner, how did that help him versus the Fins last year? Benched what was it, three times in the one game? He looked lost in the NFL last year.

    The level between college and the NFL is massive - the reason there is churn there at the bottom of rosters is because they are choosing between one freakish athlete and another, and the reason why there are so many busts in the NFL. You can't just be a freakish athlete - you have to have something more that that, either an extra dimension of athletic freakishness or some other game-oriented talent.

    The Dolphins have players that have been in the league for years that look lost. It's why they're a bad football team.

    While Miami is busy choosing between which freak athlete to play at right tackle between Tyson Clabo's and Marc Colombo's... neither would've started at Alabama over D.J. Fluker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    I'm not about to compare the man to Case Keenum. I think that's folly. But I don't think he's the NFL prospect Russell Wilson was, either. Perhaps I rated Russell Wilson too low as a prospect (solid mid to high 2nd round). The way Wilson has played he should have been a #1 overall. But I also feel like if another Russell Wilson came out I would probably rate him about the same as I did Russell Wilson himself. And if Johnny Manziel is not the prospect Wilson was then why should he get a higher grade?

    Manziel WILL have to give himself up more in some situations...but I'm not sure it will help. First off with his style I'm not sure he'll do it. I'm not sure he's actually capable of it. I don't think he sees the field and sees timing-based reads from inside the pocket very well, and that's going to give him tendencies that put him out there as a raw steak for the lions on the defensive line.

    Here's a video which really addresses that point about vision within the pocket for me:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...s-draft-boards

    I do think Johnny leaves the pocket for no reason at times. Or rather he holds onto the football for an inordinate amount of time, which in turn forces him to leave the pocket under duress, for no good reason. Evaluating Mike Evans has been difficult at times because Evans seems to have a knack for getting open in his breaks with correct timing and you'd like to see him finish some of those catches and transition to RAC the way an NFL player will need to, but Manziel just doesn't see him or hit him. He waits and waits, gets his guys into scramble drills, climbs up or out of the pocket and searches for wide open windows into which to throw.

    Again these are tendencies he'll have to break at the next level and maybe he just gets there and changes. Maybe it'll be easy. As Awsi said maybe the talent will just find a way.

    But when you consider his significant off field issues and attitude problems, I don't think so. When the going gets tough (and it *will* get tough, at some point), I don't know that he's going to throw himself body and soul into the effort to move away from the player he was that got him the Heisman and all this acclaim in college. And he's going to have NO SHORTAGE of people whispering in his ear that it's his coaches, not him, that need to change. That he needs to get back to being "Johnny Football" and that his real problem, the REAL reason he's not succeeding in the NFL (even if just temporarily), is because he's not being "himself".

    Then he'll go back to the old habits. And he'll get K.I.A.


    These are the knocks that are legitimate. Again, he doesn't leave the pocket for no reason. There's a reason.

    As I said a long time ago. it's because he can't see the Choice/Switch routes develope that make up Sumlin's 4-Verts concept, that are staples of any variation of Run-and-Shoot. That's a reason to leave the pocket.

    Secondly, it's to make something happen because he missed the timing based reads from inside the pocket.

    Bottom line is he's worth the risk for any team that needs a quarterback. It's a QB league, and if you're not taking risks at the QB position, you're not trying to win. I think anything inside the top 20 is reaching for Manziel, but after that he's worth the gamble.
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    DJ Fluker was drafted at no 11 overall playing as a college right tackle - if you can name 5 other college players drafted to be right tackles at the next level, who were drafted in the top 15 players overall in any draft in the last 15 years I will be very surprised. He was a home-run prospect and hence drafted as high as he was for his position. Comparing any RT to Fluker isn't that good because a RT drafted in the top 15 of the draft (even a weak one like last year) just doesn't come around that often.
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