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Thread: Johnny Manziel Critics

  1. -41
    ckparrothead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post
    These are the knocks that are legitimate. Again, he doesn't leave the pocket for no reason. There's a reason.

    As I said a long time ago. it's because he can't see the Choice/Switch routes develope that make up Sumlin's 4-Verts concept, that are staples of any variation of Run-and-Shoot. That's a reason to leave the pocket.

    Secondly, it's to make something happen because he missed the timing based reads from inside the pocket.

    Bottom line is he's worth the risk for any team that needs a quarterback. It's a QB league, and if you're not taking risks at the QB position, you're not trying to win. I think anything inside the top 20 is reaching for Manziel, but after that he's worth the gamble.
    I'll buy that.

    I think the Cowboys could take a bite at 16 if he does slide. But the consensus seems to be that he won't.
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  2. -42
    ckparrothead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungover View Post
    DJ Fluker was drafted at no 11 overall playing as a college right tackle - if you can name 5 other college players drafted to be right tackles at the next level, who were drafted in the top 15 players overall in any draft in the last 15 years I will be very surprised. He was a home-run prospect and hence drafted as high as he was for his position. Comparing any RT to Fluker isn't that good because a RT drafted in the top 15 of the draft (even a weak one like last year) just doesn't come around that often.
    Just in the last draft Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel and Lane Johnson were all drafted to play right tackle immediately and whether they continued to play right tackle indefinitely was not going to depend on them but rather on the men that were currently playing left tackle (Brandon Albert, Eugene Monroe and Jason Peters, respectively).

    If Albert had stayed healthy during 2013 and hadn't shown any signs of age then he'd still be there and Eric Fisher would still be a right tackle. If Eugene Monroe had showed any level of buy-in with the offensive scheme, he might still be in Jacksonville and Luke Joeckel may still be a right tackle. As it happened, Jason Peters DID stay healthy in 2013 and played well, bought into Chip Kelly's new scheme, and so he's been re-signed and now Lane Johnson is a right tackle indefinitely.

    But since you asked, I believe Jon Tait was taken at 14 overall to play right tackle. Kenyatta Walker was also taken at 14 overall to play right tackle. Mike Williams was taken at 2 overall and he was most certainly intended to be a right tackle. Jordan Gross was taken at 8 overall and played right tackle from 2003 to 2007 before finally moving to left tackle in 2008. Shawn Andrews was taken at 16 overall and intended to play right tackle. Gosder Cherilus was taken at 17 overall and has been playing right tackle ever since. Jeff Otah same thing at 19 overall. Andre Smith was taken 6 overall and never intended to be anything other than a right tackle. Anthony Davis was taken at 11 overall and never intended to be anything but a right tackle. I believe George Foster and Stockar McDougle were taken both 20 overall and intended to play right tackle all along.

    That's 12 guys taken in the top 20 to play right tackle for a significant amount of their career in the last 15 drafts...nearly 1 every draft. There have been 5 guys taken in just the top 11 for that deed.
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  3. -43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    Just in the last draft Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel and Lane Johnson were all drafted to play right tackle immediately and whether they continued to play right tackle indefinitely was not going to depend on them but rather on the men that were currently playing left tackle (Brandon Albert, Eugene Monroe and Jason Peters, respectively).

    If Albert had stayed healthy during 2013 and hadn't shown any signs of age then he'd still be there and Eric Fisher would still be a right tackle. If Eugene Monroe had showed any level of buy-in with the offensive scheme, he might still be in Jacksonville and Luke Joeckel may still be a right tackle. As it happened, Jason Peters DID stay healthy in 2013 and played well, bought into Chip Kelly's new scheme, and so he's been re-signed and now Lane Johnson is a right tackle indefinitely.

    But since you asked, I believe Jon Tait was taken at 14 overall to play right tackle. Kenyatta Walker was also taken at 14 overall to play right tackle. Mike Williams was taken at 2 overall and he was most certainly intended to be a right tackle. Jordan Gross was taken at 8 overall and played right tackle from 2003 to 2007 before finally moving to left tackle in 2008. Shawn Andrews was taken at 16 overall and intended to play right tackle. Gosder Cherilus was taken at 17 overall and has been playing right tackle ever since. Jeff Otah same thing at 19 overall. Andre Smith was taken 6 overall and never intended to be anything other than a right tackle. Anthony Davis was taken at 11 overall and never intended to be anything but a right tackle. I believe George Foster and Stockar McDougle were taken both 20 overall and intended to play right tackle all along.

    That's 12 guys taken in the top 20 to play right tackle for a significant amount of their career in the last 15 drafts...nearly 1 every draft. There have been 5 guys taken in just the top 11 for that deed.
    I'm just not going to get into a debate whether these guys were drafted to be RT or not, becuase its just not a highly valued position in the NFL, it really isn't that far above guard in terms of value on draft boards; if you are saying, for example, that Eric Fisher was drafted where he was to be a RT that's just absurd. Fluker last year was drafted as a RT, if you can find any evidence he was drafted for LT I would like to see it. There are RTs drafted early but they are rare, just as guards being drafted early are - if they do go early its because they are home run prospects, and frankly, to get back to the thread, Johnny Football isn't. He'll get someone important fired from a front office in the next three years because he's been overvalued and drafted that way, and no one can claim that person hadn't been warned.
    Last edited by Hungover; 04-02-2014 at 12:17 PM. Reason: .....
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  4. -44
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    if you're rick spielman and you are probably gonna get fired anyways next year if you don't find a qb and lose all those scrubs you got in the building now why not take the chance...of course the smart play would be to draft teddy bridgewater...a qb that does go thru his progressions and does recognize coverage and does stand in the pocket and play from it if your head is gonna be on a block

    the only thing christian ponder mr one read and take off like a chicken with his head cut off is gonna do is get you fired...josh freemans lost all confidence from anyone...matt cassell ha ha...

    if i read one more bortles is roethlisberger comparison i'm gonna lose it...what a bunch of crap...dude wont even stand in to make a throw against middle pressure...yet he's compared to the oak tree roethlisberger...

    hungovers right though it's not good value to draft a right tackle in the high first round...most the guys that are worth the picks transition or the plan is to transition them over to the left side eventually...once the incumbent is jettisoned
    hoops scoops 2012 season ..."in 2014 ryan tannehill etches his name in stone amongst the games elite qbs"..."ryan tannehill and andrew luck will carry the afc for the next decade plus the way peyton manning and tom brady have this last decade plus"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungover View Post
    I'm just not going to get into a debate whether these guys were drafted to be RT or not,
    Good because there isn't really any debate here. The 12 guys I listed (which you'll notice did not include Eric Fisher or Luke Joeckel) were drafted and played at right tackle. You're going to try and debate that Mike Williams, Andre Smith, Anthony Davis, Stockar McDougle, Jeff Otah, Gosder Cherilus or Shawn Andrews were taken to be left tackles? Good luck with that. You're going to need it.

    There are RTs drafted early but they are rare,
    If by "rare" you mean about one a year, then yes they are rare.
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  6. -46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hungover View Post
    I'm just not going to get into a debate whether these guys were drafted to be RT or not, becuase its just not a highly valued position in the NFL, it really isn't that far above guard in terms of value on draft boards; if you are saying, for example, that Eric Fisher was drafted where he was to be a RT that's just absurd. Fluker last year was drafted as a RT, if you can find any evidence he was drafted for LT I would like to see it. There are RTs drafted early but they are rare, just as guards being drafted early are - if they do go early its because they are home run prospects, and frankly, to get back to the thread, Johnny Football isn't. He'll get someone important fired from a front office in the next three years because he's been overvalued and drafted that way, and no one can claim that person hadn't been warned.

    They're going to get fired anyway if they don't find a quarterback. That's the point. Pro Bowl left tackles, right tackles, guards, and whatever else can't save 'em.
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    I love the certainty with which everyone posts on these topics, like its a foregone conclusion one way or the other.

    Manziel is abnormally talented and has a winning competitive mentality, which is an intoxicating mix. He has size issues, some mechanical wrinkles and limited experience, particularly operating in a pocket.

    Whether he turns out to be boom, bust or Mr. mediocre is largely going to be a product if where he lands after the draft.

    I said two seasons ago that Wikson would thrive in a team where the coach had the balls to build the offense around him and his strengths, while masking his few flaws. Carroll didn't hesitate, put Wilson in as starter as a rookie and never looked back.

    Manziel maybe has a different set of needs in terms of the coaches, teammates and division which will get the best out of his prodigious talent. But he wont be equally successful wherever he goes.

    There's no way at this point of predicting just how good he'll be. I can tell you one thing, he wont thrive in a WCO like he might in other systems.
    Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. - S. Beckett
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedSlimmJr View Post

    He doesn't leave the pocket for no reason... I assure you there's a reason. Blaine Gabbert left the pocket for no reason... hew threw with his eyes closed from inside the pocket.

    Keenum went undrafted and Manziel will be a 1st rounder because there's a clear difference in talent.

    There's also a difference between production in C-USA, and production in the SEC. That difference in talent is why one was in C-USA and the other in the SEC to begin with. It's just not a good comparison.
    I've seen Johnny leave the pocket or stretch the pocket for no reason quite often, kid doesnt like to sit still. Watch his game vs LSU and tje difference between Johnny in the 1st and 2nd half. LSU brought the pressure hard the second half, Johnny didn't even look like the same player anymore. he got exposed bad there IMO.

    And I agree Johnny is a better talent than Keenum, but I don't agree he's that much better and his strengths and weaknesses are far more similar than anyone seems to want to admit. Go read a scouting report from Keenum, it's identical to johnnys. Not saying Johnny isn't better, but there similarities are striking, amd his weaknesses is inntje NFL won't take long to expose the same way it did for Keenum.

    And I agree, if I needed a qb late in the 1st I'd take a shot on Johnny, not because I really think he will be a franchise qb, more so for the "why not" factor. And Id love to see him go to Dallas just for the entertainment factor.
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  9. -49
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXwarXx View Post
    I've seen Johnny leave the pocket or stretch the pocket for no reason quite often, kid doesnt like to sit still. Watch his game vs LSU and tje difference between Johnny in the 1st and 2nd half. LSU brought the pressure hard the second half, Johnny didn't even look like the same player anymore. he got exposed bad there IMO.

    And I agree Johnny is a better talent than Keenum, but I don't agree he's that much better and his strengths and weaknesses are far more similar than anyone seems to want to admit. Go read a scouting report from Keenum, it's identical to johnnys. Not saying Johnny isn't better, but there similarities are striking, amd his weaknesses is inntje NFL won't take long to expose the same way it did for Keenum.

    And I agree, if I needed a qb late in the 1st I'd take a shot on Johnny, not because I really think he will be a franchise qb, more so for the "why not" factor. And Id love to see him go to Dallas just for the entertainment factor.


    Here's what you have to understand... there's a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL staying in the pocket for no reason. Because they can't play.

    These are the teams that need to take a shot on Johnny Manziel.
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    Manziel is the most polarizing player to come along since Tebow. The Draft Analysts in the media are all over the place on him. Gil Brandt has said that he's the best player in the Draft and expects that he will be taken #1 by the Texans. Ron Jaworski has identified a string of potential problems on and off the field and sees him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick. That's a pretty big variance.
    Manziel is extremely confident and is probably the most arrogant player to emerge in a decade. He is undersize, underweight and too inclined to scramble to get out of trouble. I think that his inclination to run around is exceptional but what has been a success in college will be his undoing in the NFL. I expect the big fast guys on Defense will ultimately get to him and blow him up.
    I think that he may have the skills to warrant a high draft pick, but is very high risk. I wouldn't touch him.
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