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Thread: Any concerns with our talent evaluators ie: our scouting dept.?

  1. -11
    ConvenientTruth's Avatar
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    I really think Ireland wanted to make a big splash last draft and went after the most intriguing prospect...in the end it got him fired...

    As for the scouting Department....they provide information...it is the GM that needs to use that information and make the best decision for the team...
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    I'm not even sure you need traditional scouts anymore in this day and age.
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    Honestly, and this isn't making excuses, but since his injury caused him to miss all of OTAs and then he missed a couple weeks of training camp, I treated last year as a redshirt year for Dion Jordan. He needed to add weight and get stronger anyway, so him missing as much time as he did was an issue.

    With Ireland and Philbin the question becomes how much did they actually disagree on. We've heard all the stories about them not getting along especially as the season got tougher, but how much did they disagree during the draft? There's a rumor how Philbin wanted Lavonte David but Ireland felt he was too small. Is that true?

    I think the issue with Sparano has coach under Ireland/Parcells is that Tony didn't really do much scouting on his own.

    And as I've said a million times, the best teams have a GM and coach that will work together with scouts and assistant coaches to find players that best fit their scheme. GMs should not force a player on a coach. You also need scouts that are willing to speak up and do a little extra work after the "elite" talent of the draft. I remember a story from when Matt Millen was GM of Detroit and they had a 2nd round pick and didn't know who to draft as their board was pretty much empty. Somebody mentioned Brian Calhoun (RB from Wisconsin) so they just took him because they knew the name.

    Now I do think Ireland had some talent as the draft went on. Whether or not you consider them superstars or not but getting production from Nolan Carroll, Brian Hartline, Reshad Jones, Chris Clemons, Charles Clay, and Jimmy Wilson is a good skill to have. But Ireland for whatever reason just did not do well in the early rounds. Some I think was aged thinking (see reasonings for drafting Patrick Turner, and John Jerry) some was overthinking (Pat White), and some was projecting a skill set and for whatever reason it didn't translate (Clyde Gates, AJ Edds, Shawn Murphy)

    Now is Hickey an improvement? Who knows. I think his willingness to work hand in hand with Philbin is a step in the right direction for the draft. BUT that doesn't mean he'll do a good job. He just can't be as stubborn about fixing his mistakes as Ireland was.
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  4. -14
    ChambersWI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roy_miami View Post
    I'm not even sure you need traditional scouts anymore in this day and age.
    I've said this many times. Scouting NFL prospects isn't THAT hard to do... especially when sites like Draft Breakdown are available. The issue is understanding what players were asked to do in college, what your system would ask of them, and whether or not their skills translate to that system. That's not even including getting to know players.

    I'll use this example; Kevin Coyle wants to run a 4-3 defense with DTs that penetrate the gaps and can provide an interior pass rush. in round 2 or 3 if we decided we needed insurance at DT for our system would you draft a guy like Will Sutton who plays best at around 290 and is asked to penetrate the line, or would you draft a being 350 pound NT in Daniel McCuellers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChambersWI View Post
    He just can't be as stubborn about fixing his mistakes as Ireland was.
    I think Ireland had a superiority complex. He probably caved to Parcells on all significant personnel decisions and this time he was going to be the man, the man with the master plan. You don't like the plan? **** off, I'm running things now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital View Post
    It's too late to change stream this draft, but Hickey will likely change some of the staff this offseason.

    I've long maintained that this is an area where a rich owner can considerably improve the team. Buying the best scouts helps, and their salaries are very low comparatively, so a wealthy owner should be able to pluck the best from the NFL and CFL if he prioritized it.

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    Agree! Some people believe that now a days we don't need a great scout dept. I don't agree with that. Of course is up to the GM to decide who he brings in, but a great scouting dept. lets him choose from a better talent pool, that better fits what the team is trying to do schematically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiketex View Post
    Hickey's best skill is reportedly player evaluation. With 18 years experience in the NFL, that is what he did and why he is here. He has inherited Ireland's team (sans Brian Gaine) and so is pretty dependent on their information. However, he was looking over the same player prospects in his former role with Tampa Bay. I would expect that he has very definite ideas on how and what he is seeking in the scouting reports and will progressively put his stamp on this side of the process.
    Other GM candidates were more articulate and skilled at using the media, eg Lake Dawson and Ray Farmer, but Stephen Ross picked the very experienced player evaluation guy. I'm optimistic that he can significantly improve our player evaluation process and results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChambersWI View Post
    I've said this many times. Scouting NFL prospects isn't THAT hard to do... especially when sites like Draft Breakdown are available. The issue is understanding what players were asked to do in college, what your system would ask of them, and whether or not their skills translate to that system. That's not even including getting to know players.

    I'll use this example; Kevin Coyle wants to run a 4-3 defense with DTs that penetrate the gaps and can provide an interior pass rush. in round 2 or 3 if we decided we needed insurance at DT for our system would you draft a guy like Will Sutton who plays best at around 290 and is asked to penetrate the line, or would you draft a being 350 pound NT in Daniel McCuellers?
    Very good example! That's where I think a great scouting dept. tries to narrow down the list of available players who fit our schemes better. Another good example was be the drafting of Jordan. Most people saw him as a much better fit as an OLB in a 34D, but we drafted him to play DE in a 43D. I remember reading at the time it happened that everyone in the war room was on the same page that he was the player they wanted. Didn't any scout bring up the point that regarding better positional fit??? who knows......
    Last edited by PHINSfan; 04-17-2014 at 11:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChambersWI View Post
    That's the million dollar question isn't it? According to sources around the league guys like Anthony Hunt and Chris Grier have great futures in the NFL and we all heard how highly thought of Brian Gaine was around the league. Have our failures been the scouts not doing their job that well or was it Jeff Ireland not really listening to those around him? Or is it coaching that failed in developing.

    I personally think it's a combo of all 3.
    very good points... I agree!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHINSfan View Post
    Very good example! That's where I think a great scouting dept. tries to narrow down the list of available players who fit our schemes better. Another good example was be the drafting of Jordan. Most people saw him as a much better fit as an OLB in a 34D, but we drafted him to play DE in a 43D. I remember reading at the time it happened that everyone in the war room was on the same page that he was the player they wanted. Didn't any scout bring up the point that regarding better positional fit??? who knows......
    I wasn't excited by the Jordan pick at all but if we ran a 3-4 I would have been extremely excited. Most defenses are flexible though and I'm pretty sure all defenses have elements of both base defenses so its not like Jordan will be useless for us, he's just not that exciting as a tweener.
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