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Thread: Final Top 32 2.0

  1. -21
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    I've still yet to hear about these Eric Ebron character concerns. Would love to know more.
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  2. -22
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    Interesting Kiper claims teams want Lewan over Mathews
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    Quote Originally Posted by finsfanjay13 View Post
    I've still yet to hear about these Eric Ebron character concerns. Would love to know more.
    http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index...nfl_draft.html


    “Hell no,” the personnel man said when asked if he was as good as Eifert. “He’s OK. He’s completely overrated, and he’s a pain in the (butt). And don’t ask him to block anybody, because he’s not going to do it.”

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200...s-ebron-renner
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  4. -24
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    Cody Latimer is just too consistently disappointing on tape for me to justify 1st round. The ball skills are excellent in some situations but then lacking when he has to stay balanced and use his feet on the sidelines (toe tap). He's got great ability to finish catches in tight physical spaces, and he's superb diving to the ground and making the low catch. But try getting him to focus on two things at once with his feet and the ball, dicey. He's got some explosiveness to him and he's such a big body after the catch, has the requisite speed, you'd think he'd be a nightmare after the catch. But then he gets arm tackled and tripped...consistently. Or he gives himself up. I have questions about his ability to separate against good corners, because that's not something I was seeing on his tape. Sure, I saw some small corners with 4.65 speed and a lack of discipline getting outclassed. Does that translate? I saw awkward and over-executed double moves. I saw corners peeking into the backfield when they shouldn't be, which really has nothing to do with Latimer's ability to separate. Overall there's a stiffness and lack of balance to him that I'm not sure you're ever going to tease out of the equation and it ends up affecting him multiple ways. But I will say this...if you are able to tease out the problems of him getting tripped after the catch, he could go from non-viable to viable just like that. A guy doesn't need to be able to hurt a defense every single way, but rather just enough ways to be useful.

    You're not the first person to mention using Beckham in the slot but I'm no closer to understanding it every time I see it. This is a guy that tends to disappear in tighter, more physical coverage. He'll be facing that in the slot. He'll face a jam at 5 yards and have to get off of it and create separation. He'll be asked to make physical catches from the slot and be a bigger bodied target for his quarterback. That's not his game. He'll be asked to make things happen with his run after catch ability, which in my opinion really doesn't exist. He's a puff of flour after the catch. Get one hand on him and he explodes in a cloud of white smoke. Arm tackles get him down easily. He's not a creative or good COD runner with the ball in his hands. He's just fast. Using him in the slot would to me be like using Mike Wallace in the slot. I think you have to use Odell Beckham on the outside and hope it works. It may. He's competent on a fair number of NFL translatable routes.

    We're not going to agree on the tackle to guard thing. I've seen too many instances where a tackle would be assumed to make a good guard and it just not end up being true. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. The projection inserts chaos into a process which is already chaotic enough without further aid. I don't think we've regularly seen Zack Martin perform especially the power- and strenth-oriented tasks at tackle that he will need to excel at in order to be an All Pro at guard. I think there's an exceeding chance that when you put him there, he's just a guy that you could have gotten in the 3rd or 4th round.

    As for Darqueze Dennard, the problem I have with his game is his ability to read things with his eyes while on the move. I don't think that's going to get better in the pros. I don't think that's as "fixable" as you do. And having "enough" athleticism isn't going to bail him out if he doesn't develop better ability to read leverage on the move in man coverage. You hit the nail on the head as far as what he's best at which is short area coverage, whether it's keeping things in front of him or being in press-man. But even that is subject to his tendency toward ****-ups, as you saw when he tripped over his own shoelaces during his back pedal against the guy we just talked about Cody Latimer, resulting in a goal line touchdown catch.

    To me the difference with Kyle Fuller is that he reads things better with his eyes and shows the ability to use that in order to time his look-back or to break up the pass cleanly. And as you say...he's got pretty extraordinary versatility. It's not just whether you want him to play press, bail or off. It's also whether you want him to play left side, right side or slot. He can start any coverage from any place on the field and he's going to execute well because of his natural skills and aggressiveness.

    Just curious as to why you've got the buyer beware on Sammy Watkins? Is it the arrest?
    Twitter: @ckparrot
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurescout View Post
    http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index...nfl_draft.html


    “Hell no,” the personnel man said when asked if he was as good as Eifert. “He’s OK. He’s completely overrated, and he’s a pain in the (butt). And don’t ask him to block anybody, because he’s not going to do it.”

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap200...s-ebron-renner
    So *one* person's opinion translates to "character issues"? Interesting.

    Within that exact same article:

    “He’s a player,” the scout said. “He’s definitely a first-round pick. It’s just a matter of how high someone takes him.”
    Also, the Bernard quote is so ambiguous, it's not even funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by finsfanjay13 View Post
    So *one* person's opinion translates to "character issues"? Interesting.

    Within that exact same article:



    Also, the Bernard quote is so ambiguous, it's not even funny.
    It's been reported he's got some issues. I just provided the first 2 links I could find. It shows in his play he's nowhere near good as he should be.
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  7. -27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckparrothead View Post
    Cody Latimer is just too consistently disappointing on tape for me to justify 1st round. The ball skills are excellent in some situations but then lacking when he has to stay balanced and use his feet on the sidelines (toe tap). He's got great ability to finish catches in tight physical spaces, and he's superb diving to the ground and making the low catch. But try getting him to focus on two things at once with his feet and the ball, dicey. He's got some explosiveness to him and he's such a big body after the catch, has the requisite speed, you'd think he'd be a nightmare after the catch. But then he gets arm tackled and tripped...consistently. Or he gives himself up. I have questions about his ability to separate against good corners, because that's not something I was seeing on his tape. Sure, I saw some small corners with 4.65 speed and a lack of discipline getting outclassed. Does that translate? I saw awkward and over-executed double moves. I saw corners peeking into the backfield when they shouldn't be, which really has nothing to do with Latimer's ability to separate. Overall there's a stiffness and lack of balance to him that I'm not sure you're ever going to tease out of the equation and it ends up affecting him multiple ways. But I will say this...if you are able to tease out the problems of him getting tripped after the catch, he could go from non-viable to viable just like that. A guy doesn't need to be able to hurt a defense every single way, but rather just enough ways to be useful.

    You're not the first person to mention using Beckham in the slot but I'm no closer to understanding it every time I see it. This is a guy that tends to disappear in tighter, more physical coverage. He'll be facing that in the slot. He'll face a jam at 5 yards and have to get off of it and create separation. He'll be asked to make physical catches from the slot and be a bigger bodied target for his quarterback. That's not his game. He'll be asked to make things happen with his run after catch ability, which in my opinion really doesn't exist. He's a puff of flour after the catch. Get one hand on him and he explodes in a cloud of white smoke. Arm tackles get him down easily. He's not a creative or good COD runner with the ball in his hands. He's just fast. Using him in the slot would to me be like using Mike Wallace in the slot. I think you have to use Odell Beckham on the outside and hope it works. It may. He's competent on a fair number of NFL translatable routes.

    We're not going to agree on the tackle to guard thing. I've seen too many instances where a tackle would be assumed to make a good guard and it just not end up being true. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. The projection inserts chaos into a process which is already chaotic enough without further aid. I don't think we've regularly seen Zack Martin perform especially the power- and strenth-oriented tasks at tackle that he will need to excel at in order to be an All Pro at guard. I think there's an exceeding chance that when you put him there, he's just a guy that you could have gotten in the 3rd or 4th round.

    As for Darqueze Dennard, the problem I have with his game is his ability to read things with his eyes while on the move. I don't think that's going to get better in the pros. I don't think that's as "fixable" as you do. And having "enough" athleticism isn't going to bail him out if he doesn't develop better ability to read leverage on the move in man coverage. You hit the nail on the head as far as what he's best at which is short area coverage, whether it's keeping things in front of him or being in press-man. But even that is subject to his tendency toward ****-ups, as you saw when he tripped over his own shoelaces during his back pedal against the guy we just talked about Cody Latimer, resulting in a goal line touchdown catch.

    To me the difference with Kyle Fuller is that he reads things better with his eyes and shows the ability to use that in order to time his look-back or to break up the pass cleanly. And as you say...he's got pretty extraordinary versatility. It's not just whether you want him to play press, bail or off. It's also whether you want him to play left side, right side or slot. He can start any coverage from any place on the field and he's going to execute well because of his natural skills and aggressiveness.

    Just curious as to why you've got the buyer beware on Sammy Watkins? Is it the arrest?
    Yeah just anyone that has been arrested or suspended was thrown into that category (some were in for things like inconsistency like Clowney or Gilbert). If not for the arrest which led to the suspension he wouldn't have been included at all. Hell of a player true #1 WR

    I was going to mention that catch about Latimer over Dennard.. but it would be hurting one argument and strengthening another

    I wouldn't even consider Dennard if I was Miami. He's a press corner all the way. Don't like his pedal and break in off coverage.. in man or in 3

    I don't know if I would take it as far as putting Wallace in the slot.. I think Beckham's better getting off press and winning in contested situations. But I see your point.

    Not being sarcastic when asking this, but what examples can you give of the Tackle-Guard transition failing? I'm intrigued. I know Mankins and Levitre did it. but I've only been following the draft really close since 2004. I'm sure there are examples I just cannot come up with any. I definitely could see Martin struggling in a power scheme at guard.. that's not his game. In a zone scheme I think he can make the transition. He's more of a mirror and wall of run blocker which suits the zone scheme. Robinson on the other hand, I am positive he can be a dominating guard in any scheme. But I would still rather see him play his way out of LT first.

    I can definitely see the argument for Fuller over Dennard tho.. I mean I had Dennard #14 and Fuller #19. Not a huge gap. It depends what you like. Fuller can do anything you ask. Dennard is one trick pony. Although he does his one trick very good. I think both are pro bowl corners. I mean I think Fuller can honestly play left, right, boundary, field, nickel, free safety, strong safety, press, press-bail,and off coverage. I really do. That kind of versatility is extremely rare as you mentioned.

    Any others positives, negatives you see with the list? I love having this kind of open discussion. Especially, with someone who knows the game.

    ---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

    forgot to add this. Could you see Latimer as a #2 Z type? I do want to add I have him late first. Not top 15 or 20 or anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurescout View Post
    It's been reported he's got some issues. I just provided the first 2 links I could find. It shows in his play he's nowhere near good as he should be.
    I haven't heard about those and I'm very close to Chapel Hill. Regardless, everyone has their opinions, so to each their own.
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  9. -29
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    Little Jeff Ireland moves like moving tackles to guards irk the hell out of me. If I'm looking for top interior line talent, then I would just take the best guard, Sua-Filo, and be done with it. With vertical offenses brings quick interior pressure schemes and I think guards are going to be more of a premier position in the future. If they are that high on taking a lineman early, I'd rather have the top rated guard than the 5th rated tackle prospect. I'm still hoping for Mosely to fall to us, but definitely wouldn't be pissed to see a corner taken either. I wish there was a way to get Aaron Donald above all
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoblePhin View Post
    Little Jeff Ireland moves like moving tackles to guards irk the hell out of me. If I'm looking for top interior line talent, then I would just take the best guard, Sua-Filo, and be done with it. With vertical offenses brings quick interior pressure schemes and I think guards are going to be more of a premier position in the future. If they are that high on taking a lineman early, I'd rather have the top rated guard than the 5th rated tackle prospect. I'm still hoping for Mosely to fall to us, but definitely wouldn't be pissed to see a corner taken either. I wish there was a way to get Aaron Donald above all
    How is that a Jeff Ireland move?
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