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Thread: China's Economy Continues to Defy Gravity

  1. -11
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    Quote Originally Posted by phins_4_ever View Post
    I am absolutely positive that US manufacturer can build better stuff than the manufacturers who supply the Walmarts and K-Marts of the world. But it is awful hard to find products made in the US.



    You're opinion on unions is clouded by the existence of corruption and greed which not always have existed with unions. Unions and government were at one point responsible that we have somewhat a 'good' life. It was unions who forced companies into more human working conditions, minimum wages, no more child labor etc. Make no mistake without them we still would work in sweat shops.
    How do you think companies will offer solid wages on their own if they need diapers when the subject minimum wage comes up?

    And you really think that companies will offer solid wages all on their own when the current situation totally contradicts that position?
    Unions served a very important role in our history and absolutely played a huge role in establishing some critical ground rules for safety and fairness in the workplace. However, their role has become much more obstructive and cumbersome in today's economy as they are really no longer needed by anyone except politicians. As with anything else, when an entity gains power and money, it loses sight of its altruism and becomes bloated. It is human nature.

    Toyota, Nissan, and a lot of other manufacturing companies do not utilize union labor. I don't know if this is at all of their plants but at least the ones here. It costs too much to hire and train a workforce to have constant turnover. It is much cheaper to pay solid wages and great benefits. I won't claim that all companies believe this but it is true and most consistently successful companies take very good care of their employees because they are seen as an asset and not a liability.

    Most manufacturing positions are not minimum wage, they usually start significantly higher and require more training and skills. Companies will pay what they need to in order to acquire and retain the talent they need. They will pay as little as they can but they will pay. They act in their best interest just like everyone else does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJ Dolphan View Post
    Or as someone told me, economics is the only field where two people who say the exact opposite things can win Nobel prizes within a few years of one another.
    Hell, they probably could win in the same year! I love economics but I always preface my statements as being educated guesses because no one really knows exactly what us going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Hell, they probably could win in the same year! I love economics but I always preface my statements as being educated guesses because no one really knows exactly what us going to happen.

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    I guess to be fair, these days anyway, they seem to win the awards for their more esoteric work. As I understand it, if you didn't know anything about Paul Krugman other than what he won is Nobel for, you wouldn't be able to predict the general tenor of his Op-Eds.

    So far as unions, I have no problem with them, as long as no one is forced by law to join one, and an employer is not forced by law to hire union labor, and that the government doesn't bail out either when the union demands become unsustainable, other than what is provided for in the bankruptcy code. Public employee unions are a bit more tricky.
    Last edited by NJ Dolphan; 07-17-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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  4. -14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Unions served a very important role in our history and absolutely played a huge role in establishing some critical ground rules for safety and fairness in the workplace. However, their role has become much more obstructive and cumbersome in today's economy as they are really no longer needed by anyone except politicians. As with anything else, when an entity gains power and money, it loses sight of its altruism and becomes bloated. It is human nature.

    Toyota, Nissan, and a lot of other manufacturing companies do not utilize union labor. I don't know if this is at all of their plants but at least the ones here. It costs too much to hire and train a workforce to have constant turnover. It is much cheaper to pay solid wages and great benefits. I won't claim that all companies believe this but it is true and most consistently successful companies take very good care of their employees because they are seen as an asset and not a liability.

    Most manufacturing positions are not minimum wage, they usually start significantly higher and require more training and skills. Companies will pay what they need to in order to acquire and retain the talent they need. They will pay as little as they can but they will pay. They act in their best interest just like everyone else does.

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    To your first paragraph: like I said. Your judgement is clouded because of the political influence of corruption and greed. Take that out and unions would have their place.

    Your example of Toyota and Nissan are actually counterproductive to your argument. You are leading off with two companies who in their structure are foreign companies. Labor laws and investment in the workforce are a lot higher in about 95% of overseas companies. A lot of these companies bring this type of structure to the US. The companies here may be organized under US law and run by US CEO's but a lot of the basic structure is brought here. VW, Siemens etc are also good examples.
    Companies like that are used to investment into the labor force.

    Why not use the atypical companies like Walmart and Kmart and the likes? True American patriotic business who are known to exploit their own labor force and not adding anything to the manufacturing process in the US. It is just more profitable to have little children make their stuff. You really don't think that Walmart employees would benefit from a good organized union?

    But at the end it is us consumers who make the difference. If Americans feel good about waving an American flag on July 4 and sing "the land of the freeeeee" with a flag made in China under inhuman conditions which has to be replaced every 2 years rather than spending $5 more and get yourself a "Made in America" flag which may last 4 times as long then so be it.

    But if we continue to have this anti-union and all-hail-the companies attitude countries like China will continue to rise. We sit here and bitch and complain but we don't do anything about it. Be it the rise of other countries, unions, politicians etc.

    Our entire social ideologies are screwed up. We hail companies like GE and energy companies and throw tax breaks and tax incentives their way, despite record breaking income, because somehow it will work out for us. We hail GE as a true American company knowing that after billions of dollars of profit they pay 0 taxes because all their profits end up in offshore accounts and the US corporation becomes a deductible failure. Yet we whine and complain about the little wellfare check family xvz gets because 'they are just bums'.

    Sometimes I feel that in the last 20 years I went through a portal into a different universe.

    Not only is our system broken, we are as well and most of us don't even realize it. We became complacent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phins_4_ever View Post
    To your first paragraph: like I said. Your judgement is clouded because of the political influence of corruption and greed. Take that out and unions would have their place.

    Your example of Toyota and Nissan are actually counterproductive to your argument. You are leading off with two companies who in their structure are foreign companies. Labor laws and investment in the workforce are a lot higher in about 95% of overseas companies. A lot of these companies bring this type of structure to the US. The companies here may be organized under US law and run by US CEO's but a lot of the basic structure is brought here. VW, Siemens etc are also good examples.
    Companies like that are used to investment into the labor force.

    Why not use the atypical companies like Walmart and Kmart and the likes? True American patriotic business who are known to exploit their own labor force and not adding anything to the manufacturing process in the US. It is just more profitable to have little children make their stuff. You really don't think that Walmart employees would benefit from a good organized union?

    But at the end it is us consumers who make the difference. If Americans feel good about waving an American flag on July 4 and sing "the land of the freeeeee" with a flag made in China under inhuman conditions which has to be replaced every 2 years rather than spending $5 more and get yourself a "Made in America" flag which may last 4 times as long then so be it.

    But if we continue to have this anti-union and all-hail-the companies attitude countries like China will continue to rise. We sit here and bitch and complain but we don't do anything about it. Be it the rise of other countries, unions, politicians etc.

    Our entire social ideologies are screwed up. We hail companies like GE and energy companies and throw tax breaks and tax incentives their way, despite record breaking income, because somehow it will work out for us. We hail GE as a true American company knowing that after billions of dollars of profit they pay 0 taxes because all their profits end up in offshore accounts and the US corporation becomes a deductible failure. Yet we whine and complain about the little wellfare check family xvz gets because 'they are just bums'.

    Sometimes I feel that in the last 20 years I went through a portal into a different universe.

    Not only is our system broken, we are as well and most of us don't even realize it. We became complacent.
    I actually agree with pretty much everything you said here. The point is that unions are corrupt and greedy, they only look out for the best interest of the union which is often to the detriment of the company and their members. I used Toyota and Nissan because they moved production to this country and are manufacturing high quality products without unions. No US car manufacturer has non-union manufacturing here.

    I didn't use Walmart or KMart because they are retailers and not manufacturers. If their employees unionized, they would just circumvent the union and hire non-union employees or just slash their workforce. Their employees are largely unskilled and part-time...somewhat apples and oranges to this conversation. I have no doubt that US manufacturers could make better products for these stores but they would undoubtedly cost more and that goes against the business model for these organizations.

    Btw, I don't like GE very much because they are the poster children for buying politicians and manipulating politics for competitive advantage. That rubs me the wrong way.

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  6. -16
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    Quote Originally Posted by phins_4_ever View Post
    To your first paragraph: like I said. Your judgement is clouded because of the political influence of corruption and greed. Take that out and unions would have their place.

    Your example of Toyota and Nissan are actually counterproductive to your argument. You are leading off with two companies who in their structure are foreign companies. Labor laws and investment in the workforce are a lot higher in about 95% of overseas companies. A lot of these companies bring this type of structure to the US. The companies here may be organized under US law and run by US CEO's but a lot of the basic structure is brought here. VW, Siemens etc are also good examples.
    Companies like that are used to investment into the labor force.

    Why not use the atypical companies like Walmart and Kmart and the likes? True American patriotic business who are known to exploit their own labor force and not adding anything to the manufacturing process in the US. It is just more profitable to have little children make their stuff. You really don't think that Walmart employees would benefit from a good organized union?

    But at the end it is us consumers who make the difference. If Americans feel good about waving an American flag on July 4 and sing "the land of the freeeeee" with a flag made in China under inhuman conditions which has to be replaced every 2 years rather than spending $5 more and get yourself a "Made in America" flag which may last 4 times as long then so be it.

    But if we continue to have this anti-union and all-hail-the companies attitude countries like China will continue to rise. We sit here and bitch and complain but we don't do anything about it. Be it the rise of other countries, unions, politicians etc.

    Our entire social ideologies are screwed up. We hail companies like GE and energy companies and throw tax breaks and tax incentives their way, despite record breaking income, because somehow it will work out for us. We hail GE as a true American company knowing that after billions of dollars of profit they pay 0 taxes because all their profits end up in offshore accounts and the US corporation becomes a deductible failure. Yet we whine and complain about the little wellfare check family xvz gets because 'they are just bums'.

    Sometimes I feel that in the last 20 years I went through a portal into a different universe.

    Not only is our system broken, we are as well and most of us don't even realize it. We became complacent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    Unions served a very important role in our history and absolutely played a huge role in establishing some critical ground rules for safety and fairness in the workplace. However, their role has become much more obstructive and cumbersome in today's economy as they are really no longer needed by anyone except politicians. As with anything else, when an entity gains power and money, it loses sight of its altruism and becomes bloated. It is human nature.

    Toyota, Nissan, and a lot of other manufacturing companies do not utilize union labor. I don't know if this is at all of their plants but at least the ones here. It costs too much to hire and train a workforce to have constant turnover. It is much cheaper to pay solid wages and great benefits. I won't claim that all companies believe this but it is true and most consistently successful companies take very good care of their employees because they are seen as an asset and not a liability.

    Most manufacturing positions are not minimum wage, they usually start significantly higher and require more training and skills. Companies will pay what they need to in order to acquire and retain the talent they need. They will pay as little as they can but they will pay. They act in their best interest just like everyone else does.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
    Both of you have valid points and the truth is roughly in the middle, at least I think so. China will continue to rise whether we buy product from them or not, given the structure of the world today we will continue to buy product from them and that is on "us" as consumers. I avoid Wal-Mart at all costs if possible. I bet I go to Wal-Mart less than 10 times a year and I love it. Wal-Mart is the perfect example of what is broken about this country, Wal-Mart is the world's largest middle man and leverages itself as such. It is mind boggling to me that a company like Wal-Mart can dictate to manufacturing what it is going to pay and when they are going to pay it without having one single stake in that product monetarily other than profit from the sale. Just in time goods provided at the cost of overhead to the manufacturer and not the store selling the product, that is ass backward.

    Unionized labor is both productive and counterproductive at this point in history. I have seen both the good and the bad, the good being the protection of rights and the bad being the sense of entitlement. Unions are needed still to this day, don't be fooled, if there wasn't unions you bet your ass companies would leverage that to their advantage. Unions also play the same games, they leverage the work force for gains, the unions have become what they once fought. The unions are now no better than the companies they once fought for rights against to be honest.

    Asian labor is an apples to oranges comparison in the world market, an Asian company is not remotely like an American company in structure or advancement. Asian companies are very hierarchal and even American based companies run their Asian branches differently. In Asia no one leap frogs the boss, the boss advances creating opportunity below for other to climb up a rung. It is a tedious process and ripe with flaw. Yeah the people are thankful for their jobs but realistically a person working in an Asian based company has the ability to get hired and maybe hit two levels of advancement if they are lucky. In America you can leverage work experience and open markets to move on, if you have the desire to leave a company another company will generally recognize that work experience if it is similar to the job applied for, it doesn't work that way in Asia for all people, yeah for upper management sure but the average Joe gets reshuffled. So like everything there is advantages and disadvantages, in the American work force you have more ability to create opportunity, in the Asian workforce you have better starting perks but less chance to advance.

    I have worked in Asian plants and I can tell you, no thank you, I would not want to be an Asian worker even for a large company like Nissan or Toyota. Too much bull**** for my blood, working for a 500 company in America has its share of bull**** but not nearly as much as Asian based companies.

    As to the GE's, Pfizer's, Apple, Google, Microsoft etc...there is a good ol' boys club of business and frankly the business men learned from the Bankers. It really is that simple, both branches funnel **** loads of cash out of the markets to divide the wealth. Division of wealth is the number one global concern social at this point in human time. Not only do we lack the skills to support ourselves if the **** ever hit the fan but the resulting epidemic would be cataclysmic if the world markets crumbled due to the corporate greed. As little as a hundred years ago most people had the knowledge to support their families outside of bought goods, now people would die because they haven't got a clue how to provide outside a consumer based civilization. Globalization is greed at its finest, wealth, power and resources.

    I really stop to ask myself at least once a day, do I really need all the **** that people have today? Why do I need an Iphone 6,234 if my Iphone 6,233 is working fine? Do I need five different media devices to stream the same **** from the net? Do I need five cars when I can only drive two in the household?

    I guess I just live differently than most do now, low debt to **** ratio. I buy if I need it from local if possible, I try to make my consumer dollar count the most if at all possible.
    Peace and Humptiness Forever


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  7. -17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY8123 View Post
    Both of you have valid points and the truth is roughly in the middle, at least I think so. China will continue to rise whether we buy product from them or not, given the structure of the world today we will continue to buy product from them and that is on "us" as consumers. I avoid Wal-Mart at all costs if possible. I bet I go to Wal-Mart less than 10 times a year and I love it. Wal-Mart is the perfect example of what is broken about this country, Wal-Mart is the world's largest middle man and leverages itself as such. It is mind boggling to me that a company like Wal-Mart can dictate to manufacturing what it is going to pay and when they are going to pay it without having one single stake in that product monetarily other than profit from the sale. Just in time goods provided at the cost of overhead to the manufacturer and not the store selling the product, that is ass backward.

    Unionized labor is both productive and counterproductive at this point in history. I have seen both the good and the bad, the good being the protection of rights and the bad being the sense of entitlement. Unions are needed still to this day, don't be fooled, if there wasn't unions you bet your ass companies would leverage that to their advantage. Unions also play the same games, they leverage the work force for gains, the unions have become what they once fought. The unions are now no better than the companies they once fought for rights against to be honest.

    Asian labor is an apples to oranges comparison in the world market, an Asian company is not remotely like an American company in structure or advancement. Asian companies are very hierarchal and even American based companies run their Asian branches differently. In Asia no one leap frogs the boss, the boss advances creating opportunity below for other to climb up a rung. It is a tedious process and ripe with flaw. Yeah the people are thankful for their jobs but realistically a person working in an Asian based company has the ability to get hired and maybe hit two levels of advancement if they are lucky. In America you can leverage work experience and open markets to move on, if you have the desire to leave a company another company will generally recognize that work experience if it is similar to the job applied for, it doesn't work that way in Asia for all people, yeah for upper management sure but the average Joe gets reshuffled. So like everything there is advantages and disadvantages, in the American work force you have more ability to create opportunity, in the Asian workforce you have better starting perks but less chance to advance.

    I have worked in Asian plants and I can tell you, no thank you, I would not want to be an Asian worker even for a large company like Nissan or Toyota. Too much bull**** for my blood, working for a 500 company in America has its share of bull**** but not nearly as much as Asian based companies.

    As to the GE's, Pfizer's, Apple, Google, Microsoft etc...there is a good ol' boys club of business and frankly the business men learned from the Bankers. It really is that simple, both branches funnel **** loads of cash out of the markets to divide the wealth. Division of wealth is the number one global concern social at this point in human time. Not only do we lack the skills to support ourselves if the **** ever hit the fan but the resulting epidemic would be cataclysmic if the world markets crumbled due to the corporate greed. As little as a hundred years ago most people had the knowledge to support their families outside of bought goods, now people would die because they haven't got a clue how to provide outside a consumer based civilization. Globalization is greed at its finest, wealth, power and resources.

    I really stop to ask myself at least once a day, do I really need all the **** that people have today? Why do I need an Iphone 6,234 if my Iphone 6,233 is working fine? Do I need five different media devices to stream the same **** from the net? Do I need five cars when I can only drive two in the household?

    I guess I just live differently than most do now, low debt to **** ratio. I buy if I need it from local if possible, I try to make my consumer dollar count the most if at all possible.
    You speak much truth, Mr. Miyagi!

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  8. -18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LouPhinFan View Post
    It's not their growth, it's how they're artificially sustaining it.
    Fair enough.

    One of the most interesting phenomena I witnessed when I was in the region is how many Chinese try to buy goods not made in China. They have been fed up with the forgery products for a while. This is despite the high tariffs on foreign goods in the country.

    As the country becomes more and more like America, the economy is going to slow down. The middle and upper classes are going to swell and demand the luxuries they feel they deserve. Opening up their markets is inevitably going to be the biggest hindrance to their philosophy, and as more Chinese make enough money to travel abroad, they are going to want to live more like South Korea and Japan. It is partially why China is now outsourcing some of their own manufacturing to parts of Vietnam and Africa.
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