My problem with the whole WR3 thing… | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

My problem with the whole WR3 thing…

Tua barely gets to his second read let alone third. So many games I saw Smythe, Achane, Wilson wide open but unfortunately I think Tua's afraid of getting concussed and does not want to extend the play. It's either Hill, Waddle, or a hero-ball prayer throw deep.

I'm more on the fence than I've ever been with Tua. His next evolution is to try to extend some plays and have the patience to let others get open.
 
I'm the one who said Tua gave Gesicki, Parker, Bowden, Preston Williams career years and after they left they were irrelevant to their current teams. I get that thats all Tua had to work with therefore these below to average players were productive in the stat dept, I also get thats why we sucked.

personally im not valuing the wide receiver position this year because of Hill and Waddle's target share and other pressing needs, however there is a discussion of what a third threat in mostly an 11 personnel offense could do to open things up for everyone, also injury and future of Hill is in the discussion, what ifs are staring us in the face.

Im putting some faith in Ezukanma to be that guy so we can build some balance.
Parker’s career year was in 2019 with Fitzpatrick throwing to him.

Williams career year was with Fitzpatrick throwing to him. Williams caught 12 passes on 26 attempts, 146 yards and 1 TD in his career with Tua.

Gesicki’s was also more effective with Fitzpatrick (8 TDs in 20 starts) than with Tua (7 TDs in 34 starts).

And to refer to Bowden as having a career year is just wrong, 28 receptions for 211 yards, 7.5 YPC, no TDs.

Hope you’re right about Ezukanma.
 
There seems to be an accepted narrative now that our issue in big games is really the offense’s problem and that this limitation stems from a talent deficiency at “WR3” which is basically taken to mean, 'anyone not named Hill or Waddle.'

I want offer a warning against buying into that too easily because it stands to reason that what people are saying here is that by sinking more resources into the WR position, the Dolphins would automatically generate the offensive production needed to ascend into playing competitive Playoff football.

My suspicion is that it's a bit more tricky than that. It's going to have to do more with X's and O's than simply buying talent.


Understanding the initial problem…

We once blamed our skill positions with good reason. Between ’20 and ’21 the Dolphins lacked elite weapons. At the time, our pass catchers were guys like Parker and Gesicki who ranked at the bottom of the league in terms separation. This was a problem.

Someone once said that Tua was good because he gave guys like Lynn Bowden, Mack Hollins and Mike Gesicki career years. That doesn't really ring as true as just saying, 'the Dolphins sucked because in Miami those guys were considered key starters.'


The 1st fix…

This weakness was first addressed by spending a Top-10 draft pick on a WR. Sure, the Dolphins traded down a few spots*, but they initially sat at #3 and had their pick of literally any non-QB in the draft. Jaylen Waddle was essentially selected as the most preferable option from among a deep WR class because not only was he fast, agile and elusive but he also had a prior relationship with Tua which could be exploited even further.

It’s hard to imagine a team not expecting this investment to turn into their #1 guy. For instance, Ja’Marr Chase, who we essentially let go to the Bengals through our actions, is now their unquestioned #1 and Kyle Pitts (another option available to us) led the Falcons in receiving yards before injuries became an issue for him more recently.

*more on that later


The 2nd fix…

The Dolphins later traded a host of picks (R1, R2, R4, R4 and R6) for another star WR who much like before, was brought in because he was fast, agile and elusive. When Hill & Waddle first took the field together in ’22 they were unanimously seen across media circles as the most dynamic duo in the NFL. Articles were written about the insanity of having both Jaylen Waddle and Tyreek Hill together on the same team.


The obvious problem…

Miami traded as many assets as a team could to secure two WRs who could get open. If our complaint today is that these two guys can’t get open that speaks to the strategy itself being foolish. We should therefore hesitate when claims are made that “better WRs” will fix our offensive problem(s).

If on the other hand, Hill & Waddle are indeed separating and getting open we should therefore blame other factors and thus not continually sink resources into “better WRs” aimed at correcting what apparently isn’t a WR problem. Once we fix WR3, what's to stop claims about WR4 needing attention immediately thereafter?


What Miami has invested at WR...

With all that went on in the '21 trades between the Dolphins, 49ers and Eagles not to mention the '22 deal with the Chiefs, it's easy to get confused. Let me summarize it all as succinctly as I can.

In 2021 Miami spent the #3 overall pick to get:

(1) Jaylen Waddle
(2) an extra R3 pick in '22*
(3) an extra R1 pick in '23**

* I won't re-hash the entire Hill trade but you can think of it this way, Hill and Waddle each cost a R1 pick. If you're willing to ignore later rounds, we essentially lost R2, R4 and R4 picks but gained a R3 pick. So on the whole I'd say we netted a loss of roughly ~R2 pick plus us having to pay Tyreek Hill.

** Miami ended up spending that extra '23 R1 pick on Chubb's 2022 year alone. That was part of his 5th year extension which Denver had awarded the year prior and which we got the rights to. He was set to hit FA immediately thereafter and Miami paid him as such when they acquired him. So we basically spent that extra R1 pick we'd earned for 1-year of Bradley Chubb playing for us during which we could privately negotiate with him before he hit FA. Ehhhh, that feels like a lot, doesn't it? That's another discussion.


So you've invested:

R1 pick (Waddle)
R1 pick (Hill)
R2 pick (Hill)
R4 pick (Ezukanma lost to injury)

And meanwhile decided that FAs River Cracraft, Trent Sherfield, Cedrick Wilson Jr. and Braxton Berrios are insufficient to do the job.

This isn't necessarily "too much" but it's enough to warrant some questions. It's enough to give you pause when someone claims Miami lacks WR talent.


The obvious problem...

Everyone was accepting about the acquisition of Cedrick Wilson who'd produced 600-yds receiving on 60 targets with the Cowboys at 13.5-ypc average the year prior. He looked like a solid contributor and strong depth for Miami. Not surprisingly, Wilson averaged 13.5-ypc last year in Miami just as he had in Dallas, so why all the complaining?

Well, in Dallas he was targeted twice as often. In Miami, his involvement dropped by ~40% as did his production. He yardage fell from 600- to 300-yds. His catches fell from 45 to 22. His scoring went from 6-TDs to just 3. It wasn't an issue of ability as much as involvement.

We can compare Braxton Berrios' 2021 year with the Jets to his 2023 year with the Dolphins and see the exact same thing. He's involved at only a 50% rate in Miami and his production fell by half.

So why are we complaining? It's not that these guys aren't who we thought they were. They're exactly who they were in Dallas and NY. We're just not throwing them the ball and that makes perfect sense when we've invested so many picks and so much money in featuring Hill & Waddle.


On targeting your best weapons:

Here are some of the 2023 teams that dumped targets to prominent pairings:


286 tgts - Raiders - Adams & Meyers
284 tgts - Lions - St. Brown & LaPorta (TE)
282 tgts - Cowboys - Lamb & Ferguson (TE)
275 tgts - Dolphins - Hill & Waddle (down from a league-leading 287 last year w. the duo missing a combined 4 games)
270 tgts - Eagles - Brown & Smith
266 tgts - Buccaneers - Evans & Godwin
255 tgts - Rams - Nakua & Cupp
254 tgts - Colts - Pittman & Downs


It's clear that Miami is near the top in targeting their primary duo but it's not unheard-of. Most good offenses have at least 1 star WR and many either feed a 2nd WR or a star TE like LaPorta in DET, Ferguson in DAL or Hockenson in MIN.

It's also clear that Hill being targeted ~10x per game isn't out of the ordinary for an elite pass catcher. Tons of other top names see roughly the same amount of balls be they Davante Adams, Travis Kelce or Justin Jefferson. If you believe Tyreek is special (which everyone does) there's nothing wrong with his 170 targets (although that would've been ~180 had he not missed a game this year).

Still, he's never actually led the NFL in targets.


Summary...

So what exactly is the problem with WR3 in Miami? Our QB just lead the entire NFL is passing yardage and we want what exactly, more production from WR3?

The obvious question here is why not just achieve that by throwing more towards Cedrick Wilson, River Cracraft or Braxton Berrios who we know can produce more if thrown to? What are the odds we're going to not only draft someone better but also be able to use that player more effectively when we're already leaving food on the table with the guys we have?

Furthermore, we haven't really made a dent in this supposed "problem" even after addressing it last year with multiple new resources being added. There's reason to believe adding more WR talent ain't the fix because this isn't even the problem.

None of those guys we brought in failed us. Quite the contrary, the evidence suggests we failed them. We've acquired them and used them less than what their previous teams did. Even Cracraft (who averages about 1 target per game for us) got about that same amount in SF believe it or not before you ever heard his name.

The last time we "featured" a WR3 was when we threw 51 times to Sherfield in 2022. That was an offense many felt was in some ways better and more balanced than in 2023. But in reality, those Sherfield targets were really just split between Berrios (33) and another 20 going to Wilson Jr last year so not much actually changed.

Keep in mind that Hill got 10 targets per game in '22 and 10.7 in '23 so that wasn't a huge swing and considering the guy was going to 2k, we can all understand the additional 0.7 being added.

And Waddle was about the same per game as well. His targets dipped slightly because of 3 missed games in '23. Mostert didn't change much. Achane entered the picture of course but that should've helped in spreading it around.


What changed?

In short, Gesicki left. While he wasn't the most ideal TE, he was nonetheless a TE worth throwing to. Between he and Smythe the TE position saw 72 targets in '22. That number dropped by almost half last year.

Okay, so we signed Jonnu Smith who showed in TEN, NE and ATL that he's capable of sharing the load and putting up a few hundred yards. However, in an NFL where the top TEs typically see between 100-140 targets (competing for the "WR2" spot), the fact Smythe only attracted 43 (which ranked T30) really tells the tale.

Jonnu Smith got 70 targets last year in ATL (18th best) so he's far from "great" but he's not bad. He's just badly needed.

Notice though that TEs start to become somewhat irrelevant once they're producing <35-yds per game which equates to about the Top-16 or so and that's where Smith sits so he's not exactly a "fix."

View attachment 168628

Obviously Jonnu Smith is a welcome addition but we still need a real stud. If Durham Smythe is our Dawson Knox we need our Dalton Kincaid, someone worthy of the Top-10. FWIW, Durham Smythe ranked 32nd among all TEs with only 23 yards per game. The dude is a weakness and thus so is the position in Miami. He's a big reason we're seen as "not a physical team."

And I seriously doubt he's going to double-up with Jonnu Smith. We're simply going to lean on Smith because he's better.

Was Smith held back in Tennessee? No. In NE? Possibly. Their offense sucks and he split time with Hunter Henry. Was he held back in ATL? Sure. He split time with Kyle Pitts and that hurts. But is he enough to help Miami with the "WR3 problem?"

For me, I suspect Miami will rely on a combination of things including (1) the WR3's they have, (2) an increased role for Achane and (3) Jonnu Smith stepping up into being a starting-caliber guy.



I don't know where this leaves us but I don't see WR being a R1, in fact I see Miami studying the TE a bit more if the talent is there in R2.

I'm on record as saying R1 is going to be OL. I'd be shocked if we went WR higher than R2 and that's only if the right guy falls.
The "accepted narrative" is that we are going to take an offensive Linemen.

Just go look at the odds on what position our 1st round pick will be on Fanduel. Oline is by far the collective narrative.

Ppl just like Bryan Thomas Jr as a prospect if he falls to #21.
 
Nice work Mello. Your point is valid as far as immediate effect, however, drafting a WR if strategic for post Tyreek Hill (2025). I'm hoping we will throw more to our new TE Smith and RBs.

As for priorities in the draft, mine are :
1. OT/OG (who could slide inside to G his rookie year)
2. Edge
3. WR
 
The problem is, I'm not sure I'm in love with who would be available in the next tier of receivers to use my first pick on that position after a trade down. They may just be better off waiting until their second pick or even latter to draft a receiver if they do decide to trade down.

For me, it'd only be for McConkey in that range. Not a player I expected to be so high on for Miami, but he gets open better than anyone in the class, is amazing at finding soft spots in zones, and he's outstanding with the ball in his hands.
 
Tua isn't a third or fourth read QB, never has been. He works best with a quick reads and anticipatory throws. Yeah, this isn't a great pass blocking line but McD made the trade for Hill with the idea that he takes the top off any defense and makes Tua a better QB by taking away the need for him to get through progressions and make plays off platform. He doesn't do that well.

Rick is right, the offense suffered most when Hill and.or Waddle missed time last season. The Williams loss was very tough but we got by fine when Hunt and Terron went down. We didn't adapt at all when either of our top two WRs were out. The collection of third and fourth receivers did not provide Tua any security or confidence. We have to get better there. Good GMs can draft for now and the future and I'm waiting for someone to tell me with Hill's issues and the injuries we've had at WR that drafting a WR would be a bad idea. These are the same people who seem capable of having only one draft thought -take any OL regardless of how that player fits the system. That thought is endorsed without a lot of thought.

I'd much rather have a veteran guard like Risner than to overdraft a kid who won't be ready or will struggle in his first year or three. I think there's a real chance that Barton goes earlier along with Fautanu and every other quality OL we could get in round 1. Love some of the guards we could get later but again I'd take Risner over C Haynes, my favorite prospect who has actually played guard. There are too many people in here who think that drafting any first round worthy OL solves our offensive problems. I couldn't disagree more, take the best player available
If our QB is not capable of (and given time to) read post snap and go through progressions, then cut him loose now because we aren't winning $hit with the limited offense you describe.

Now, I don't think what you said is true, but if it is, neither a lineman, nor receiver is going to make a difference against high quality defenses.
 
If our QB is not capable of (and given time to) read post snap and go through progressions, then cut him loose now because we aren't winning $hit with the limited offense you describe.

Now, I don't think what you said is true, but if it is, neither a lineman, nor receiver is going to make a difference against high quality defenses.
Personally, I think Tua does have the ability to go through progressions......however the reality of our ability to protect him long enough to do so dictates a different approach.

As for the premise of the thread, there isn't one answer that is right.......we have a few obvious needs to attempt to address in this draft. OL / Edge and WR are all areas we can help ourselves with if we draft successfully. And while I feel OL is the top need, I can absolutely see Grier going Edge or WR if the right talent is available at 21. i hope they stick with OL, but anything is possible.

This offense will definitely benefit from an improved TE room (already done) and a legit 3rd option at WR. But there is no greater help to an effective passing game than improving our OL performance and stability.
 
Nice Post OP! My 2 cents, Tua has shown that he can 'read the field', what he hasn't shown is an ability to improvise when his protection breaks down. The animals that they have rushing the passer now days will not be denied for very long. Bolstering the OL makes sense, so does adding a TE that is a threat. Having Achane and Mostert back there who can drag out of the backfield are also useful. The problem as I see it is there's just not enough decent OL to go around, thus it's becoming more of a premium. Our OL last year was solid, not spectacular until Wynn went down, this despite Armstead missing time early. The backups were wholly inadequate. Having a premium 3rd receiver does no good if the QB is staring at the sky from flat on his @$$.
 
Good post OP.. I think the Oline is in need of an upgrade before the Wr position.

My reasoning is that first, the Dolphins run 11 personnel about 40% of the time. They are running either 12 or 21 personnel more often than 11. Why pick a WR that high and only play him 40% of the time if Waddle and Hill are healthy. I think that would be a luxury to park a high end Wr, you pick early in the draft as insurance, if one of your top 2 Wr were dinged up and couldn't play.

The second and more important reason as to why offensive line should be the choice is because the Dolphins run the pistol formation with high frequency, I think they were number 2 in the league in running this formation last year. In the pistol, Tua is 4 or 5 yards deep receiving the ball, compared to 7 yards deep in the shotgun formation. I read where people complain about Tua not having the time and has to get the ball off in 2.3 seconds but when he is in the pistol, he is closer to the line of scrimmage then if he were in shotgun, doesn’t that effect that time to throw number? If the Dolphins continue to run with high frequency from the pistol formation, I would think Offensive line would be the greatest need moving forward.
 
Tua isn't a third or fourth read QB, never has been. He works best with a quick reads and anticipatory throws. Yeah, this isn't a great pass blocking line but McD made the trade for Hill with the idea that he takes the top off any defense and makes Tua a better QB by taking away the need for him to get through progressions and make plays off platform. He doesn't do that well.

I totally agree and it's a great point that someone specializing in anticipation is naturally going to target early reads at a rate higher than someone specializing in arm-strength or mobility.

We didn't adapt at all when either of our top two WRs were out. The collection of third and fourth receivers did not provide Tua any security or confidence. We have to get better there. Good GMs can draft for now and the future and I'm waiting for someone to tell me with Hill's issues and the injuries we've had at WR that drafting a WR would be a bad idea. These are the same people who seem capable of having only one draft thought -take any OL regardless of how that player fits the system. That thought is endorsed without a lot of thought.

I don't necessarily agree with the above.

The only game Hill sat out was against the Jets where we won 30-0 and Tua posted a 119.4 rating completing 21/24 throws for 87% completion percentage. The offense seemed to adapt fine. Waddle sat out during the game against Denver where we put up 70 so that doesn't support the argument either.

Waddle did sit out the final two games against Baltimore and Buffalo. You can definitely make the case we could've used him against Buffalo and that his absence may have cost us a win and a home Playoff game against Pittsburgh we would've likely won.

Still, Tua didn't play perfectly against Buffalo. Miami had the run game working and Tua had a lot of time in the pocket. One of his INTs was a badly underthrown deep shot to Hill in double coverage. That's not due to the absence of Waddle. His 2nd INT was the weird ball to Claypool at the end. Blame the route, I guess, but Tua had all day to throw that and it seems like a dangerous throw outside the numbers into double coverage. Just a risky decision with the game on the line.

I'd much rather have a veteran guard like Risner than to overdraft a kid who won't be ready or will struggle in his first year or three. I think there's a real chance that Barton goes earlier along with Fautanu and every other quality OL we could get in round 1. Love some of the guards we could get later but again I'd take Risner over C Haynes, my favorite prospect who has actually played guard. There are too many people in here who think that drafting any first round worthy OL solves our offensive problems. I couldn't disagree more, take the best player available

I get your point but I've learned from losing Wilkins & Hunt that we can't go drafting those kinds of positions high. Unless they turn into HoF players we aren't going to be re-signing them. And to that point, if you have to spend a R1 pick to get solid Guard play you aren't good enough to build a SB-worthy team.
 
Nice Post OP! My 2 cents, Tua has shown that he can 'read the field', what he hasn't shown is an ability to improvise when his protection breaks down. The animals that they have rushing the passer now days will not be denied for very long. Bolstering the OL makes sense, so does adding a TE that is a threat. Having Achane and Mostert back there who can drag out of the backfield are also useful. The problem as I see it is there's just not enough decent OL to go around, thus it's becoming more of a premium. Our OL last year was solid, not spectacular until Wynn went down, this despite Armstead missing time early. The backups were wholly inadequate. Having a premium 3rd receiver does no good if the QB is staring at the sky from flat on his @$$.


Yeah, I get the logic. I just don't know if I quite see it in the actual footage. Tua has a lot of time on many plays and Achane ran through some big holes, even towards the end. What Miami needs is a Center who can stay healthy for the sake of continuity. I'm actually somewhat on-board with Grier's decisions regarding Guards. We need to find affordable guys and we shouldn't be drafting Top-40 to do it. Let the Robert Hunt thing be a lesson to us.
 
A few things to remember...

>> If the draft is indeed deep at WR it stands to reason we should be willing to take someone later, not earlier.

>> Many other teams have found gems in the mid-rounds: Cooper Cupp, Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, Puka Nacuo, Amon-Ra St. Brown, etc. We need to start doing that and a class deep at WR should help.

>> Our R3 and R4 receiver picks have generally not contributed: Hunter Long, Erik Ezukanma, etc. This trend really needs to stop if we're to be a stable and productive offense in the long-term.
 
Tua barely gets to his second read let alone third. So many games I saw Smythe, Achane, Wilson wide open but unfortunately I think Tua's afraid of getting concussed and does not want to extend the play. It's either Hill, Waddle, or a hero-ball prayer throw deep.

I'm more on the fence than I've ever been with Tua. His next evolution is to try to extend some plays and have the patience to let others get open.
Tua's scrambling ability is just poor. The extra weight he put on made him slow as mud.
He also does not have quick feet in the pocket. Even slow Qbs can manuever around in the pocket to still make throws. Big Ben seemed to always avoid pressure around and still make accurate throws.
But Tua is handicapped in the pocket because he is short and really cant move quick enough to get better vision. Brees was short but could move quickly enough to get passing lanes.
Playing at Alabama was actually a detriment to Tua because 98% of the time he had clean pockets and no pressure.
 
Back
Top Bottom