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Tunsil Trade Revisited

j-off-her-doll said:
Tate and Baldwin were both excellent WR's, Harvin was excellent when healthy (playoffs), and they had a historic defense. Not hard to see how they're a bad example.

The Rams had Cooks, Woods, Gurley, a cutting-edge offense, and a great defense with star talent. Not hard to see how they're a bad example.

The Eagles had Jeffrey, Celek, Goedert, Agholor (sp?), and they were a year ahead of the league on RPO's. They had an elite OL, a great D, and Foles went on a heater. But, the league, even into the SB, really struggled to adjust to Philadelphia's RPO's - iirc especially out of 2-TE sets. It's not hard to see how they're not a good example.

Brady had the most dominant TE in NFL history, and Mahomes has maybe the best pure receiving TE in NFL history. Mahomes also has one of the Top 5 offensive minds in NFL history as his HC. Mahomes and Brady are also the two best QB's in NFL history.

You see, the weaker WR gets in one of these examples, the more outrageous the exceptions are in other areas. Yes, if you're historically good at QB, TE, and/or have a historically great D, you need less from your WR's. But, what's most likely to happen? Do you want to build your team around historical exceptions or your most likely path toward success?

As good as Mahomes is, if Kelce didn't get right for the playoffs, and if Rice didn't emerge/develop, they would have not won the SB - wouldn't have beat Buffalo. Mahomes is the best QB in the league, and there's probably an empty tier between him and the next tier, and KC's offense looked like trash for much of 2023, because the Pass Catchers weren't playing well enough.

So, like I said, there's a balance. But, if you don't have reliable Pass Catchers and Pass Catchers with big-play ability, you're starting from WAY behind.
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I think you've changed your stance.

#1
If you're now telling the board that Super Bowl caliber teams have talent at the WR position, exactly what kind of revelation is that?

You're just citing what are by definition going to be some of the most talented rosters and pointing out the common sense fact that talent extends into the WR position as it does every other. I could say Super Bowl teams have good offensive lines or strong secondaries and be generally right.

None of the teams you highlighted were particularly "built around WR." Not the '17 Eagles. Not the '18 Rams. Not the '24 Chiefs.

You're basically saying that "having WR talent" and "built around WR" are the same thing. Uh, no.

#2
Keep in mind that in this particular discussion "WR" and "TE" are explicitly not the same thing so for every TE you claim, you're undermining your original point that "building around WR" is a smart strategy. The Miami Dolphins are living proof that you can build around WR without doing anything good at TE.

#3
The reason that "building around WR" was originally criticized as a strategy was on the basis of it sometimes leading to talent deficiencies at other positions (such as TE). The fact you're citing affordable WRs and prominent TEs doesn't answer the original criticism but rather puts you in alignment with that criticism.
 
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The Ghost said:
Except the guys listed didn’t have big games when it came to winning the Super Bowl.

The Rams won the Super Bowl scoring 23 points to the Bengals 20, without much of an investment in WRs. Tampa Bay won a Super Bowl with Gronkowski producing as much as Evans, Godwin and Brown combined.

Chiefs won the Super Bowl because they were able to shut down Aiyuk and Samuel. A pair that don’t appear to be destined to play together much longer, Just like Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase. The Chargers dumped their WRs but kept Bosa and Mack because edge rushers, despite being older and oft injured are still that much more important of a position than WRs.

If you have a great QB surely you want talented WRs but you need other things first to win the Super Bowl. The Niners would’ve won the Super Bowl if their OL was even half way decent.

The Falcons blew a 25 point lead because the great Julio Jones couldn’t do squat to stop that comeback when they needed it and the one play the Falcons made in the second half way immediately met with a paid of sacks that didn’t even let them attempt a FG after Jones did make a miraculous catch inside the 30.

The Eagles and Patriots basically both dumped the ball off for 4 quarters in their SB and the Eagles won it on trick play. As soon the Eagles extended Alshon Jeffrey they instantly regretted it. Both teams featured arguably the best OLs in either conference.

At the end of the day you think what you think and I know what I know. We’re just not going to agree.

If you give Tua more time he’ll complete passes to virtually anyone. You can’t think stacking the WR room with more talent would have nearly the effect of quality OL.

A lot of teams have won Super Bowls in the last 20 years with pedestrian WR corps because they were able to give their QB the time to complete passes to guys like Marquess Colston, Hines Ward, Deion Branch, Julian Edelman, Nelson Agholor, Doug Baldwin, Juju Smith-Schuster, Rashee Rice.

You know whose name you don’t see? Randy Moss, who got shut down in his lone Super Bowl.

The greatest show on turf and the Colts early 2000s were absolutely loaded and squeaked out their lone SB wins against not so talented teams in Tennessee and Chicago. The high flying Broncos is the mid 2010’s got shut down in one SB and won the other with defense against a one man team (Cam Newton) who got their with Ted Ginn Jr as their best WR.

What has Tyreek Hill really done for the Dolphins to make them a contender other than helping to thrash the really bad teams that all finished with the top spots in the draft…… Carolina, Washington, New England (x2) LAC, NYG, NYJ (x2) LV, Denver. We struggled in a lot of the games he had the most targets in. And really we were lucky to win that Dallas game.

Would I love to have him another Tyreek on a rookie contract? Sure but you can’t argue he’s the same player against Buffalo, Kansas City, Baltimore and Philly that he is against the teams picking in the top 6. Because when we play those great teams our OL can’t protect long enough for him to matter as much.

I said my piece, not trying to persuade you.
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I much preferred the way the Dolphins offense looked in 2022 vs 2023. The stats don't really do a very good job of showing it, but the offense ran through Tyreek Hill last season. It's not much different than how the Dolphins had a bunch of rushing yards but it's a finesse offense and not a power running game. The Dolphins went to Hill a lot. And that's great for the QB to have such a strong connection with the #1 WR. It's just that #1 WR demands a lot of attention to keep up with his league narrative. He is elite, but it also places an unnecessary burden on the offense to give him a lot of touches. The 2022 offense seemed to spread the ball around a bunch. There was a lot more perceived randomness in where Tua was going with the football.

I've always believed that I would rather have a greater quantity of good to very good players as opposed to a few elite ones. And football is such a relational team sport. When you are in such good sync with your teammates, it's all about how well you execute and not just about how fast or strong you are.
 
Mello Yello said:
I think you've changed your stance.

#1
If you're now telling the board that Super Bowl caliber teams have talent at the WR position, exactly what kind of revelation is that?

You're just citing what are by definition going to be some of the most talented rosters and pointing out the common sense fact that talent extends into the WR position as it does every other. I could say Super Bowl teams have good offensive lines or strong secondaries and be generally right.

None of the teams you highlighted were particularly "built around WR." Not the '17 Eagles. Not the '18 Rams. Not the '24 Chiefs.

You're basically saying that "having WR talent" and "built around WR" are the same thing. Uh, no.

#2
Keep in mind that in this particular discussion "WR" and "TE" are explicitly not the same thing so for every TE you claim, you're undermining your original point that "building around WR" is a smart strategy. The Miami Dolphins are living proof that you can build around WR without doing anything good at TE.

#3
The reason that "building around WR" was originally criticized as a strategy was on the basis of it sometimes leading to talent deficiencies at other positions (such as TE). The fact you're citing affordable WRs and prominent TEs doesn't answer the original criticism but rather puts you in alignment with that criticism.
Click to expand...

I think your reading comprehension is poor.
 
AgentXof12 said:
I much preferred the way the Dolphins offense looked in 2022 vs 2023. The stats don't really do a very good job of showing it, but the offense ran through Tyreek Hill last season. It's not much different than how the Dolphins had a bunch of rushing yards but it's a finesse offense and not a power running game. The Dolphins went to Hill a lot. And that's great for the QB to have such a strong connection with the #1 WR. It's just that #1 WR demands a lot of attention to keep up with his league narrative. He is elite, but it also places an unnecessary burden on the offense to give him a lot of touches. The 2022 offense seemed to spread the ball around a bunch. There was a lot more perceived randomness in where Tua was going with the football.

I've always believed that I would rather have a greater quantity of good to very good players as opposed to a few elite ones. And football is such a relational team sport. When you are in such good sync with your teammates, it's all about how well you execute and not just about how fast or strong you are.
Click to expand...

At the end of the day, any QB is likely only going to succeed if given the time to use their abilities to the fullest. With Tua, that’s down field passing (despite clueless Cowherd’s completely false critique). You gotta keep him healthy and you gotta give him time. He’ll put the ball where it needs to be.

I don’t want the kid making decisions in 2.3 seconds or less, that often.
 
The Ghost said:
At the end of the day, any QB is likely only going to succeed if given the time to use their abilities to the fullest. With Tua, that’s down field passing (despite clueless Cowherd’s completely false critique). You gotta keep him healthy and you gotta give him time. He’ll put the ball where it needs to be.

I don’t want the kid making decisions in 2.3 seconds or less, that often.
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He's very decisive which is something I like. On that basis, I think he's always going to be someone who appears to get it out quickly. An offense that allows him to continue doing that is not necessarily a bad thing. I'm sure you'd agree.

And truth be told, I don't really want him holding the ball a la Josh Allen either because he doesn't have the arm strength to rifle the 30- or 40-yd throw which is sometimes necessary when a play lasts forever nor does he run around to extend plays. The sooner the ball comes out the more likely he's successful most of the time.

I just want him to be able to stand in the pocket and step into throws without being rushed. Our interior OL seemed to remain healthy for most of the last season. Williams & Hunt played the whole year and Eichenberg & Jones split time at LG but weren't switching it up every game. I think Eichenberg played the first half of the season and Jones the back half.

That OL continuity may be a big factor here.
 
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