Tunsil Trade Revisited

[Dolph N.Fan]

We're stuck in a time warp because Ross seems to have no concept for how long to wait to expect results. Other teams are contending, rebuilding, and contending again in the amount of time it takes us to perform our "rebuild". If you cannot at least win a playoff game in 3 seasons then you're probably spinning your wheels, that's been pretty much proven in the salary cap era.

It’s all because Ross won’t do a FULL house cleaning. Grier always survives and the HC is fired and not the GM or the GM is fired but not the HC which constantly leads to tearing down the currently philosophies and strategies with a new coach and start from scratch again. Can’t build a foundation constantly doing that.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

The Dolphins invested 3 firsts, a second, 2 fourths and 6th round pick in those two WRs as well as a massive contract but only used a first and second on drafting OL. How is that not building around the WR position?

In addition to throwing away money on Gesicki (who wasn’t a TE) and Cedrick Wilson.

Heck even in 2022 when we hardly any draft picks we used one of our only ones on a WR.

Hard to argue they didn’t build around that position. It’s also hard to argue it was worth the investment.

And on top of that we’re essentially left with two more years of Tyreek and legitimate concern about how we’ll be able to afford to re-sign Waddle.

Trent McDuffie and L’Jarius Sneed got the best of Hill and Waddle twice last year.

I wasn’t advocating for building around one position just stressing the importance of OT, DE and CB being the premium positions and highlighting how overrated the WR position is in comparison.

I mean, you have to consider the starting point.

Prior to drafting Waddle, Miami had Tua going into Year 2, and his top receivers were Parker and Gesicki - comfortably the worst pair of top options in the league. Prior to Hill, Gesicki and Wilson (who they signed the same offseason they traded foe Hill) were the 2nd and 3rd options.

With Hill and Waddle, Miami made the playoffs in back-to-back years for the first time in two decades - despite injuries destroying both seasons.

Saying McDuffie and Snead got the best of Hill and Waddle lacks nuance and has nothing to do with positional value.

KC just traded Snead for a 3rd instead of paying him 2/3 of what Hill makes (really less when you consider the expanded cap). You're going to have an impossible time justifying that stance.

Why do you think WR is overrated?

 

[The Ghost]

I mean, you have to consider the starting point.

Prior to drafting Waddle, Miami had Tua going into Year 2, and his top receivers were Parker and Gesicki - comfortably the worst pair of top options in the league. Prior to Hill, Gesicki and Wilson (who they signed the same offseason they traded foe Hill) were the 2nd and 3rd options.

With Hill and Waddle, Miami made the playoffs in back-to-back years for the first time in two decades - despite injuries destroying both seasons.

Saying McDuffie and Snead got the best of Hill and Waddle lacks nuance and has nothing to do with positional value.

KC just traded Snead for a 3rd instead of paying him 2/3 of what Hill makes (really less when you consider the expanded cap). You're going to have an impossible time justifying that stance.

Why do you think WR is overrated?

Because I’ve been watching football my entire life throw the lens of the QB position. There is no substitute for giving a QB more time as opposed to having WRs who are more talented.

I’ll take Wes Welker and Julian Edelman all day over Randy Moss and Cris Carter if it means I get an extra second to find those WRs.

I’ll take Travis Kelce and Rob Gronkowski over any WR in the league right now.

I don’t think having elite WRs correlates to post season success. That doesn’t mean i think you can win with bad WRs either but I am firm believer that when the QB is great, you enhance that with your OL first and foremost.

And defensively I think there is no comparison to the difficulty great DEs and CBs cause even the best QBs.

Outside of Jerry Rice I don’t think Marino would’ve considered traded Richmond Webb or Dwight Stevenson for any WR in the league at that time.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Because I’ve been watching football my entire life throw the lens of the QB position. There is no substitute for giving a QB more time as opposed to having WRs who are more talented.

I’ll take Wes Welker and Julian Edelman all day over Randy Moss and Cris Carter if it means I get an extra second to find those WRs.

I’ll take Travis Kelce and Rob Gronkowski over any WR in the league right now.

I don’t think having elite WRs correlates to post season success. That doesn’t mean i think you can win with bad WRs either but I am firm believer that when the QB is great, you enhance that with your OL first and foremost.

And defensively I think there is no comparison to the difficulty great DEs and CBs cause even the best QBs.

Outside of Jerry Rice I don’t think Marino would’ve considered traded Richmond Webb or Dwight Stevenson for any WR in the league at that time.

WR/pass catcher loudly correlates with postseason success. The last five SB's included Deebo Samuel, Brandon Aiyuk, Travis Kelce, George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey, AJ Brown, Devonta Smith, Cooper Kupp, OBJ (who was playing his best ball since NY before his injury), JaMarr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Mike Evan, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Tyreek Hill, and Emmanuel Sanders.

Every team needs balance, but pass-catcher is non-negotiable. Yes, if you have Gronk or Kelce, you need less at WR, and you can afford to spread resources in ways without them (and maybe Kittle) can't, but, again, there are 2 or 3 of those guys in the league (tops) at any given time. If you don't have one of them, you need a near-elite (at worst) WR unit to have a chance to compete.

Among recent SB participants, we see a lot more variation in quality of OT, Center, Edge, and CB than in Pass Catchers.

That's not to say those positions aren't important. You need to build a balanced team. But, the passing game is king, and after QB, Pass Catcher is the most important aspect of sustained and ultimate success.

 

[The Ghost]

WR/pass catcher loudly correlates with postseason success. The last five SB's included Deebo Samuel, Brandon Aiyuk, Travis Kelce, George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey, AJ Brown, Devonta Smith, Cooper Kupp, OBJ (who was playing his best ball since NY before his injury), JaMarr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Mike Evan, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Tyreek Hill, and Emmanuel Sanders.

Every team needs balance, but pass-catcher is non-negotiable. Yes, if you have Gronk or Kelce, you need less at WR, and you can afford to spread resources in ways without them (and maybe Kittle) can't, but, again, there are 2 or 3 of those guys in the league (tops) at any given time. If you don't have one of them, you need a near-elite (at worst) WR unit to have a chance to compete.

Among recent SB participants, we see a lot more variation in quality of OT, Center, Edge, and CB than in Pass Catchers.

That's not to say those positions aren't important. You need to build a balanced team. But, the passing game is king, and after QB, Pass Catcher is the most important aspect of sustained and ultimate success.

Except the guys listed didn’t have big games when it came to winning the Super Bowl.

The Rams won the Super Bowl scoring 23 points to the Bengals 20, without much of an investment in WRs. Tampa Bay won a Super Bowl with Gronkowski producing as much as Evans, Godwin and Brown combined.

Chiefs won the Super Bowl because they were able to shut down Aiyuk and Samuel. A pair that don’t appear to be destined to play together much longer, Just like Tee Higgins and Jamar Chase. The Chargers dumped their WRs but kept Bosa and Mack because edge rushers, despite being older and oft injured are still that much more important of a position than WRs.

If you have a great QB surely you want talented WRs but you need other things first to win the Super Bowl. The Niners would’ve won the Super Bowl if their OL was even half way decent.

The Falcons blew a 25 point lead because the great Julio Jones couldn’t do squat to stop that comeback when they needed it and the one play the Falcons made in the second half way immediately met with a paid of sacks that didn’t even let them attempt a FG after Jones did make a miraculous catch inside the 30.

The Eagles and Patriots basically both dumped the ball off for 4 quarters in their SB and the Eagles won it on trick play. As soon the Eagles extended Alshon Jeffrey they instantly regretted it. Both teams featured arguably the best OLs in either conference.

At the end of the day you think what you think and I know what I know. We’re just not going to agree.

If you give Tua more time he’ll complete passes to virtually anyone. You can’t think stacking the WR room with more talent would have nearly the effect of quality OL.

A lot of teams have won Super Bowls in the last 20 years with pedestrian WR corps because they were able to give their QB the time to complete passes to guys like Marquess Colston, Hines Ward, Deion Branch, Julian Edelman, Nelson Agholor, Doug Baldwin, Juju Smith-Schuster, Rashee Rice.

You know whose name you don’t see? Randy Moss, who got shut down in his lone Super Bowl.

The greatest show on turf and the Colts early 2000s were absolutely loaded and squeaked out their lone SB wins against not so talented teams in Tennessee and Chicago. The high flying Broncos is the mid 2010’s got shut down in one SB and won the other with defense against a one man team (Cam Newton) who got their with Ted Ginn Jr as their best WR.

What has Tyreek Hill really done for the Dolphins to make them a contender other than helping to thrash the really bad teams that all finished with the top spots in the draft…… Carolina, Washington, New England (x2) LAC, NYG, NYJ (x2) LV, Denver. We struggled in a lot of the games he had the most targets in. And really we were lucky to win that Dallas game.

Would I love to have him another Tyreek on a rookie contract? Sure but you can’t argue he’s the same player against Buffalo, Kansas City, Baltimore and Philly that he is against the teams picking in the top 6. Because when we play those great teams our OL can’t protect long enough for him to matter as much.

I said my piece, not trying to persuade you.

 

[Marine-O]

When do we start blaming the potential 55 mil a year QB? Take away Hill and what does it look like?

 

[Highzenga]

All those bolded parts just feel like excuses and fan-speak to me.

I think we've peaked personally. I think the reasons we've hit walls and fallen short the last 2 years are real and it's on McDaniel & Tua to rise above where they've been and reach a level they never have.

Expecting McDaniel to continually re-invent his offense and Tua to suddenly have answers in year-5 he hasn't before is optimistic.

I think if we add Beckham & Risner along with our 2 early picks this roster is even more loaded than last year. And yes McDaniel & Tua need to continue to grow and I think they will.

 

[Mello Yello]

ya basically. I hate to say it because I love Tua. But I have to be honest and I think we didn't follow the course of the rebuild and some of that is because we wanted to prove that Tua was the right pick. We were saving money and draft picks then it all changed with the Hill trade. Gave Armstead a huge contract when people knew he was always hurt. I think the noise was louder because Flores was so unhappy with Tua. I mean I never saw a second year qb take so much heat deserved or undeserved. This rebuild seemed to change course quickly. I just think people don't realize the public and private damage done with Tua because of Flores unhappiness. After all that firestorm we went out and started doing everything to prove Tua was the guy. From hiring Mcdaniel, to getting Hill, etc. But if flores wouldn't caused such a a big deal about Tua we could just let him develope naturally and stick to rebuild as planned.

Good thoughts. I don't really agree with your paradigm but I totally understand what you're saying.

My perspective is harsh. I'll admit that up front. My view is that NFL franchises are drafting to find overly-mature people (both physically & mentally). While most would think of these guys as "kids" they are most certainly not and will not succeed if they are weak.

The NFL is not like the "real world" where raising a child takes soft hands, patience, delicacy, nuance, etc. The NFL is a brutally competitive environment designed to make a few singularly talented QBs incredibly wealthy & famous while the majority are forgotten.

It's also a sport designed to make the QB the star if he's good enough when supported by a strong team. Look at almost any franchise in the NFL and ask who the best player in that team's history was: Unitas, Staubach, Marino, Elway, Montana, Kelly, Rodgers, Mahomes, Manning, Brady, etc. They are almost inevitably going to be QBs so long as the team has had someone great at the position.

Those QB prospects that don't have the maturity and confidence to block out the noise and drag their franchises upward will be exposed one way or the other. I just don't think that can be hidden, buried, resolved or otherwise compensated for at a level that achieves Championships.

In essence, I don't think Flores' criticism "damaged" Tua any more than he was inevitably going to be by the realities of the profession.

When you're trying to compete with a league full of physical freaks like Mahomes, Allen, Jackson as well as a slew of clutch dudes who seem destined for glory like Burrow and Purdy there's just no room for a lack of self-belief. Small players in other sports (just like in football) have always been the tenacious types. As soon as that was exposed with Tua, we were in trouble.

Inspired by a fear of failing, we've slowly positioned an emotionally-insecure QB within a blanket of an overly-supportive HC and a slew of elite weapons. Don't get me wrong. A team should always support their QB to get the best out of him but the best out of Tua has mostly disappointed us in the toughest moments and biggest tests. It seems to me like we've been ignoring that reality for about 4 years now.

 

[bane]

Good thoughts. I don't really agree with your paradigm but I totally understand what you're saying.

My perspective is harsh. I'll admit that up front. My view is that NFL franchises are drafting to find overly-mature people (both physically & mentally). While most would think of these guys as "kids" they are most certainly not and will not succeed if they are weak.

The NFL is not like the "real world" where raising a child takes soft hands, patience, delicacy, nuance, etc. The NFL is a brutally competitive environment designed to make a few singularly talented QBs incredibly wealthy & famous while the majority are forgotten.

It's also a sport designed to make the QB the star if he's good enough when supported by a strong team. Look at almost any franchise in the NFL and ask who the best player in that team's history was: Unitas, Staubach, Marino, Elway, Montana, Kelly, Rodgers, Mahomes, Manning, Brady, etc. They are almost inevitably going to be QBs so long as the team has had someone great at the position.

Those QB prospects that don't have the maturity and confidence to block out the noise and drag their franchises upward will be exposed one way or the other. I just don't think that can be hidden, buried, resolved or otherwise compensated for at a level that achieves Championships.

In essence, I don't think Flores' criticism "damaged" Tua any more than he was inevitably going to be by the realities of the profession.

When you're trying to compete with a league full of physical freaks like Mahomes, Allen, Jackson as well as a slew of clutch dudes who seem destined for glory like Burrow and Purdy there's just no room for a lack of self-belief. Small players in other sports (just like in football) have always been the tenacious types. As soon as that was exposed with Tua, we were in trouble.

Inspired by a fear of failing, we've slowly positioned an emotionally-insecure QB within a blanket of an overly-supportive HC and a slew of elite weapons. Don't get me wrong. A team should always support their QB to get the best out of him but the best out of Tua has mostly disappointed us in the toughest moments and biggest tests. It seems to me like we've been ignoring that reality for about 4 years now.

Hard to argue with anything you said.

I will say that last year Tua admitted he looked into the mirror and said “do I suck? “
He said that to that cbs sideline reporter when they were talking during the week before the game.
That does concern me. I don’t think his confidence should be shaken that much Thought the non stop Watson. Rumors were really straining I bet for anyone. But I look at other players that sucked like baker mayfield or Kenny Pickett at times and they didn’t seem to lose confidence or go through all the **** tua did. And they played worse than tua did his first two years at times.

I guess I am blaming Flores for us changing our approach to the rebuild and also questioning tua a bit. Even if I love the kid.

For example if Flores didn’t screw with mikah Fitzpatrick so much would we traded him ? Maybe we could have used that second rounder from the Texans on another position besides safety when we got holland. I feel like Flores did damage but I agree players need to be tough. Maybe Tua does need get stronger mentally. I don’t know. I was rewatching the game we beat the cowboys and on the last drive tua almost dropped the snap before he threw it. I think pressure gets to him sometimes.

I think we both have some good points . Appreciate the dialogue bother.

 

[Dolph N.Fan]

Hard to argue with anything you said.

I will say that last year Tua admitted he looked into the mirror and said “do I suck? “
He said that to that cbs sideline reporter when they were talking during the week before the game.
That does concern me. I don’t think his confidence should be shaken that much Thought the non stop Watson. Rumors were really straining I bet for anyone. But I look at other players that sucked like baker mayfield or Kenny Pickett at times and they didn’t seem to lose confidence or go through all the **** tua did. And they played worse than tua did his first two years at times.

I guess I am blaming Flores for us changing our approach to the rebuild and also questioning tua a bit. Even if I love the kid.

For example if Flores didn’t screw with mikah Fitzpatrick so much would we traded him ? Maybe we could have used that second rounder from the Texans on another position besides safety when we got holland. I feel like Flores did damage but I agree players need to be tough. Maybe Tua does need get stronger mentally. I don’t know. I was rewatching the game we beat the cowboys and on the last drive tua almost dropped the snap before he threw it. I think pressure gets to him sometimes.

I think we both have some good points . Appreciate the dialogue bother.

The trade with Houston everyone would have done 10 times over. Even Tunsil said he’d trade himself for that much. But Grier outsmarted himself trading down and then back up to get Waddle. Drafting Igbinoghene in rd 1 was another killer. And of course the forfeit of FRP to tampering was another blow. It’s just a shame that Miami hasn’t won anything’s mentioning beyond a 70pt game. One win vs buffalo since that trade. Abysmal record vs teams with winning records. 0 division titles. 0 playoff wins. Just two measly one and done as 6th/7th seeds.

Grier should be embarrassed

 

[daryl]

If it’s any consolation, the Dolphins had the best quarterback ever to never win a Super Bowl. Now they have the best quarterback ever who may never win a playoff game.

 

[Mello Yello]

WR/pass catcher loudly correlates with postseason success. The last five SB's included Deebo Samuel, Brandon Aiyuk, Travis Kelce, George Kittle, Christian McCaffrey, AJ Brown, Devonta Smith, Cooper Kupp, OBJ (who was playing his best ball since NY before his injury), JaMarr Chase, Tee Higgins, Tyler Boyd, Mike Evan, Chris Godwin, Antonio Brown, Tyreek Hill, and Emmanuel Sanders.

Every team needs balance, but pass-catcher is non-negotiable. Yes, if you have Gronk or Kelce, you need less at WR, and you can afford to spread resources in ways without them (and maybe Kittle) can't, but, again, there are 2 or 3 of those guys in the league (tops) at any given time. If you don't have one of them, you need a near-elite (at worst) WR unit to have a chance to compete.

Among recent SB participants, we see a lot more variation in quality of OT, Center, Edge, and CB than in Pass Catchers.

That's not to say those positions aren't important. You need to build a balanced team. But, the passing game is king, and after QB, Pass Catcher is the most important aspect of sustained and ultimate success.

To me that doesn't ring very true when we can extend the window back another 5-8 years and see a slew of counter-examples:

Who were Eli & Brady throwing to in 2011?
Who were Kaepernick & Flacco throwing to in 2012?
Who was Russell Wilson throwing to in 2013?
Who was Brady throwing to in 2014?
Who was Cam Newton throwing to in 2015?
Who was Brady throwing to in 2016?
Who were Wentz & Foles throwing to in 2017?
Who were Goff & Brady throwing to in 2018?


About the only "elite" WRs I see among those teams between '11 - '18 would be Demaryius Thomas of the Broncos in '13 and Julio Jones with the Falcons in '16.

You can't tell me a washed up '12 Randy Moss was elite when he contributed <500-yds receiving on that '12 49ers team. I'll give you Wes Welker between '11 - '12 but even he was a guy who needed to right kind of QB and system.

But the rest are good-not-great types. You can't tell me guys like Michael Crabtree, Torrey Smith, Kelvin Benjamin, Tyler Lockett, Julian Edelman, Ted Ginn Jr, Mario Manningham, Alshon Jeffrey or Doug Baldwin are "elite."

Likewise, the Chiefs were not elite at WR last year when they won the Super Bowl nor have the Bills been in recent years and they've constantly sat atop a tough division. I think we could keep that list going, too.

 

[Ikema]

I have to agree, there is much room for improvement in our F.O. Houston will be on its third year of it's rebuild and Miami it's fifth. If you were to bet on which team will win two playoff games in year 2024-2025, most of us would put our money on Houston.

Grier needs to go. What has he produced? He has been a part of this franchise for twenty plus years and has been part of the problem. The only thing he has accomplished is to make Miami better than 50% of the other NFL teams. Good front offices recognize homegrown talent and figure out how to keep them. Yes, Wilkins became too expensive to sign this year but, Grier had an opportunity last year and played poker and lost.

Speak for yourself

 

[j-off-her-doll]

To me that doesn't ring very true when we can extend the window back another 5-8 years and see a slew of counter-examples:

Who were Eli & Brady throwing to in 2011?
Who were Kaepernick & Flacco throwing to in 2012?
Who was Russell Wilson throwing to in 2013?
Who was Brady throwing to in 2014?
Who was Cam Newton throwing to in 2015?
Who was Brady throwing to in 2016?
Who were Wentz & Foles throwing to in 2017?
Who were Goff & Brady throwing to in 2018?


About the only "elite" WRs I see among those teams between '11 - '18 would be Demaryius Thomas of the Broncos in '13 and Julio Jones with the Falcons in '16.

You can't tell me a washed up '12 Randy Moss was elite when he contributed <500-yds receiving on that '12 49ers team. I'll give you Wes Welker between '11 - '12 but even he was a guy who needed to right kind of QB and system.

But the rest are good-not-great types. You can't tell me guys like Michael Crabtree, Torrey Smith, Kelvin Benjamin, Tyler Lockett, Julian Edelman, Ted Ginn Jr, Mario Manningham, Alshon Jeffrey or Doug Baldwin are "elite."

Tate and Baldwin were both excellent WR's, Harvin was excellent when healthy (playoffs), and they had a historic defense. Not hard to see how they're a bad example.

The Rams had Cooks, Woods, Gurley, a cutting-edge offense, and a great defense with star talent. Not hard to see how they're a bad example.

The Eagles had Jeffrey, Celek, Goedert, Agholor (sp?), and they were a year ahead of the league on RPO's. They had an elite OL, a great D, and Foles went on a heater. But, the league, even into the SB, really struggled to adjust to Philadelphia's RPO's - iirc especially out of 2-TE sets. It's not hard to see how they're not a good example.

Brady had the most dominant TE in NFL history, and Mahomes has maybe the best pure receiving TE in NFL history. Mahomes also has one of the Top 5 offensive minds in NFL history as his HC. Mahomes and Brady are also the two best QB's in NFL history.

You see, the weaker WR gets in one of these examples, the more outrageous the exceptions are in other areas. Yes, if you're historically good at QB, TE, and/or have a historically great D, you need less from your WR's. But, what's most likely to happen? Do you want to build your team around historical exceptions or your most likely path toward success?

As good as Mahomes is, if Kelce didn't get right for the playoffs, and if Rice didn't emerge/develop, they would have not won the SB - wouldn't have beat Buffalo. Mahomes is the best QB in the league, and there's probably an empty tier between him and the next tier, and KC's offense looked like trash for much of 2023, because the Pass Catchers weren't playing well enough.

So, like I said, there's a balance. But, if you don't have reliable Pass Catchers and Pass Catchers with big-play ability, you're starting from WAY behind.

 

[Golphindolphin]

When do we start blaming the potential 55 mil a year QB? Take away Hill and what does it look like?

How's about we wait until either of those things actually happen prior to self-immolation?