Tunsil Trade Revisited

[j-off-her-doll]

Multiple, aside from the obvious one.

OT, C, Edge, CB, all more important (by a wide margin) than WRs, especially in the post season.

WR is one of the last things I’m adding to rebuilding team.

Couldn't disagree more.

 

[The Ghost]

Couldn't disagree more.

A great TE is also more important than a great WR.

History proves you don’t need great WRs to win championships. Doesn’t mean you can get by with bad ones, there are minimum requisites for sure. But building around WRs is beyond dumb.

I’ll take better pass protection over better WRs all day, as a QB.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

A great TE is also more important than a great WR.

History proves you don’t need great WRs to win championships. Doesn’t mean you can get by with bad ones, there are minimum requisites for sure. But building around WRs is beyond dumb.

I’ll take better pass protection over better WRs all day, as a QB.

Elite TE's, of which there are maybe 3 or 4 at any given time, are more valuable, because they're much cheaper, but pass catchers determine the ceiling of any team in modern football.

It doesn't really make sense to separate WR/TE in this way - unless you're talking salary implications.

My initial response, though, was alluding to the idea of building around any one position. No teams do that. Miami having Hill and Waddle (2 of 22 offensive and defensive starting spots), doesn't mean they built around WR. Miami is and has been relatively thin/top-heavy at WR. They need more, not less.

 

[BROGS]

Off topic but just felt slight earthquake here in Jersey. Crazy

 

[BROGS]

4.8 out in Lebanon NJ.

 

[The Ghost]

Elite TE's, of which there are maybe 3 or 4 at any given time, are more valuable, because they're much cheaper, but pass catchers determine the ceiling of any team in modern football.

It doesn't really make sense to separate WR/TE in this way - unless you're talking salary implications.

My initial response, though, was alluding to the idea of building around any one position. No teams do that. Miami having Hill and Waddle (2 of 22 offensive and defensive starting spots), doesn't mean they built around WR. Miami is and has been relatively thin/top-heavy at WR. They need more, not less.

The Dolphins invested 3 firsts, a second, 2 fourths and 6th round pick in those two WRs as well as a massive contract but only used a first and second on drafting OL. How is that not building around the WR position?

In addition to throwing away money on Gesicki (who wasn’t a TE) and Cedrick Wilson.

Heck even in 2022 when we hardly any draft picks we used one of our only ones on a WR.

Hard to argue they didn’t build around that position. It’s also hard to argue it was worth the investment.

And on top of that we’re essentially left with two more years of Tyreek and legitimate concern about how we’ll be able to afford to re-sign Waddle.

Trent McDuffie and L’Jarius Sneed got the best of Hill and Waddle twice last year.

I wasn’t advocating for building around one position just stressing the importance of OT, DE and CB being the premium positions and highlighting how overrated the WR position is in comparison.

 

[The Ghost]

4.8 out in Lebanon NJ.

So I was on the toilet here in Pa when it happened. Funny thing is I read yesterday there was going to military helicopter exercises here in the Lehigh Valley and assumed they were flying over head.

 

[TFK]

Off topic but just felt slight earthquake here in Jersey. Crazy

Felt it here in Newark. I just posted something the lounge. People are freaking out here. Crazy.

 

[bane]

So you're saying that Chris Grier has made mistakes by trying to prop up Tua's public image through over-investing in WRs and an entire offensive rebuild?

I think that's pretty accurate. I don't know anyone here who doesn't think we've leaned hard into trying to make Tua as productive as he can be. The debate seems to revolve around how far that's going to take us.

ya basically. I hate to say it because I love Tua. But I have to be honest and I think we didn't follow the course of the rebuild and some of that is because we wanted to prove that Tua was the right pick. We were saving money and draft picks then it all changed with the Hill trade. Gave Armstead a huge contract when people knew he was always hurt. I think the noise was louder because Flores was so unhappy with Tua. I mean I never saw a second year qb take so much heat deserved or undeserved. This rebuild seemed to change course quickly. I just think people don't realize the public and private damage done with Tua because of Flores unhappiness. After all that firestorm we went out and started doing everything to prove Tua was the guy. From hiring Mcdaniel, to getting Hill, etc. But if flores wouldn't caused such a a big deal about Tua we could just let him develope naturally and stick to rebuild as planned.

 

[Mr Fan]

Ok this is ridiculous.

On August 31, 2019, Tunsil, Kenny Stills, and a fourth-round pick were traded to the Houston Texans in exchange for two first-round picks, a second-round pick, Johnson Bademosi, and Julien Davenport. He started 14 games at left tackle in 2019, earning his first trip to the Pro Bowl.

2019 Houston went 10-6, won the AFC South, beat Buffalo in the WC then blew a 24-0 lead losing 51-31 to the Chiefs.

2019 Miami went 5-11, earning the 5th overall pick in the draft as they start their rebuild.

2020 Draft Miami trades one of the 1sts (26th overall) they got from Houston to Green Bay (for 30th overall and a 4th rd pick) so the Packers could select Jordon Love. Miami uses pick from Green Bay (30th) for Noah Igbinoghene who is now on his 3rd team already. That 4th rd pick was traded to Houston to move up and take Solomon Kindley @ pick 111 Houston got picks 136 and 141.

2020 Texans begin their rebuild go 4-12. Tunsil makes pro bowl for 2nd consecutive season.

2020 Miami goes 10-6, misses playoffs

2021 draft...where things gets wonky, Miami trades the #3 overall pick (the 2nd FRP from houston in Tunsil trade) to San Francisco (49ers used pick for Trey Lance) for pick #12, a FRP in 2022 a 3rd in 2022 and a FRP in 2023. Miami then trades back up to #6 with Philadelphia giving up #12 and #123 and a FRP in 2022. Miami also got a 5th rd pick. Miami drafts Jaylen Waddle @6. Miami trades that 5th rd pick to Pittsburgh for a 2022 4th rd pick (Erik Ezukanma) Miami uses that Houston tunsil trade 2nd rd pick on Jevon Holland.


2021 Texans go 4-13.

2021 Dolphins go 9-8 miss playoffs

2022 draft Miami trades their FRP (#29) from Trey Lance 49er trade and a 4th rd pick to KC for Tyreek Hill. Miami uses 3rd rd pick from 49ers Trey Lance trade for Channing Tindall

2022 season Miami goes 9-8, loses to Buffalo in WC
2022 Texans go 3-13-1, Tunsil makes pro bowl for 3rd time.

2023 Draft miami forfeits the 2nd FRP from 49ers lance trade for tampering.

2023 season Miami goes 11-6 loses to KC in WC
2023 Texans go 10-7, win AFC South, beat Cleveland in WC before losing to Baltimore in Divisional Rd. Tunsil makes pro bowl for 4th time.

lol how is Houston how closer to a SB than Miami is? How did San Francisco not have a setback from missing on Lance (yeah I know they got lucky on Purdy). Something ain't right in the FO here. Houston gets rid of Bill O'brien, rebuild, draft Franchise QB, win division and a playoff game, become SB contenders all in the span of 5 years while Miami still spinning its wheels.

Miami basically got Noah Igbinoghene, Solomon Kindley, Jaylen Waddle, Erik Ezukanma, Jevon Holland, Tyreek Hill, and Channing Tindall from their Tunsil trade which overlaps with the Trey Lance trade. Not much to show for it. Miami pretty much got a 70 point game and good offense in September/October out of all this. Was it worth it?

You will hate the answer.

They have from the early returns what seems to be a very special QB. This QB does not have any particular limitations from a metrics standpoint.

Next add in just some fundamental football building by their front office...and boom. A very interesting team.

 

[Dolphins3]

I think we all liked Ronnie but man was that bad luck, the year we have the #2 pick and that was the best we could do with it.

I know. He's one of my favorite Dolphins of the 2000's. He had a nice, productive run with Miami. And I still feel like we could have done something better with that pick. I felt then (and still do in some ways) that it was a panic pick in the aftermath of the Ricky Williams retirement.

In the interest of full disclosure, In 2005, I wasn't convinced Rodgers was going to be anything special either and didn't care that he slipped. So, this is not a "we should have drafted Rodgers" post (though we should have, lol).

 

[Dolphins3]

Yeah, I can only imagine. I'm in the Carolina market so of course the Dolphins are seen as a rich and well-off franchise by comparison with the lowly Panthers.

I don't think teams like the Steelers have any secrets. Any team that comes along and makes the right choices can become good (quickly) and find it's way to the Super Bowl. This is one big lesson to keep in mind for Dolphins fans who are often so desperate for anything like prominence and national acclaim they allow themselves to wildly over-estimate the value of their own players.

In recent times, we've seen the 49ers and Eagles both do it twice, each time with different HC-QB tandems. The Rams got there twice with different QBs. We've seen the Seahawks and Bengals both rebuild all the way to the Super Bowl in short order. The Lions and Texans have turned themselves around quickly. You just have to hit on the right guys. When you don't have them you just have to keep rolling the dice. Nobody stops being a fan when the team is losing. They stop being a fan when the team fails to play the game--and Miami's too often done that by pushing out rosters that are fundamentally out-of-balance.

Likewise, there's nothing that says the Steelers are going to continue to draft stud defensive players (a list which seems endless throughout their history) or hit on productive QBs (Bradshaw, Roethlisberger, etc.). They don't have any inherent advantage in surveying the landscape of college prospects.

I don't think that desire is lacking in Miami. Ross clearly wants to win. I just don't know that the Dolphins understand how to build a team. They see it as talent acquisition rather than something more organic. Rather than build a team that could bullying the opponent (which the Shula teams of the 70s were good at and which the modern game still requires in Dec-Feb), Miami is typically a hodge-podge roster of flashy talent mixed with stop-gaps all with very little "identity" ever showing itself.

We've also been very bad at the foremost position: QB. You cannot look at Miami and seriously think we should've achieved anything prior to Tua Tagovailoa. Even Tua's game though leaves a lot of questions about his upper-end potential in the Playoffs where conditions and pressure demand more than what scheme can open up on its own.

Funny you mention the Panthers since they have had more success in the 2000's than the Dolphins in terms of playoff victories (SB runs in 2003 and 2015). I certainly wouldn't trade the Dolphins' history for the Panthers' history. But I would certainly trade everything since 2000 with them.

Your post about QB is spot on. I loved Chad Pennington. He's one of my six favorite QB's of all-time (not best, just favorites). But I knew he was a complete gap filler and we were fortunate to get a full season out of him. Since Marino, we have played at various times...Fiedler, Griese, Frerotte, Culpepper, Harrington, Green, Beck, Henne, Moore, Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, and Tua. This does not count some other backups and temporary gap fillers like Bridgewater, Thigpen, Cutler, Thompson, Lemon, White, Thigpen, Thompson, and some others I am missing (just freestyling here off the top of my head. )

Maybe Tua is the answer, but I remain unconvinced.

 

[Stoobz]

I have to wonder if that trade was worth it when I can be swayed to think it is and also, is not.

My inclination is to think it was but Grier&Co. did not get huge dividends on their returns over time.

 

[Rick Cartman]

Yeah, I can only imagine. I'm in the Carolina market so of course the Dolphins are seen as a rich and well-off franchise by comparison with the lowly Panthers.

I don't think teams like the Steelers have any secrets. Any team that comes along and makes the right choices can become good (quickly) and find it's way to the Super Bowl. This is one big lesson to keep in mind for Dolphins fans who are often so desperate for anything like prominence and national acclaim they allow themselves to wildly over-estimate the value of their own players.

In recent times, we've seen the 49ers and Eagles both do it twice, each time with different HC-QB tandems. The Rams got there twice with different QBs. We've seen the Seahawks and Bengals both rebuild all the way to the Super Bowl in short order. The Lions and Texans have turned themselves around quickly. You just have to hit on the right guys. When you don't have them you just have to keep rolling the dice. Nobody stops being a fan when the team is losing. They stop being a fan when the team fails to play the game--and Miami's too often done that by pushing out rosters that are fundamentally out-of-balance.

Likewise, there's nothing that says the Steelers are going to continue to draft stud defensive players (a list which seems endless throughout their history) or hit on productive QBs (Bradshaw, Roethlisberger, etc.). They don't have any inherent advantage in surveying the landscape of college prospects.

I don't think that desire is lacking in Miami. Ross clearly wants to win. I just don't know that the Dolphins understand how to build a team. They see it as talent acquisition rather than something more organic. Rather than build a team that could bullying the opponent (which the Shula teams of the 70s were good at and which the modern game still requires in Dec-Feb), Miami is typically a hodge-podge roster of flashy talent mixed with stop-gaps all with very little "identity" ever showing itself.

We've also been very bad at the foremost position: QB. You cannot look at Miami and seriously think we should've achieved anything prior to Tua Tagovailoa. Even Tua's game though leaves a lot of questions about his upper-end potential in the Playoffs where conditions and pressure demand more than what scheme can open up on its own.

We're stuck in a time warp because Ross seems to have no concept for how long to wait to expect results. Other teams are contending, rebuilding, and contending again in the amount of time it takes us to perform our "rebuild". If you cannot at least win a playoff game in 3 seasons then you're probably spinning your wheels, that's been pretty much proven in the salary cap era.

 

[Dolph N.Fan]

I know. He's one of my favorite Dolphins of the 2000's. He had a nice, productive run with Miami. And I still feel like we could have done something better with that pick. I felt then (and still do in some ways) that it was a panic pick in the aftermath of the Ricky Williams retirement.

In the interest of full disclosure, In 2005, I wasn't convinced Rodgers was going to be anything special either and didn't care that he slipped. So, this is not a "we should have drafted Rodgers" post (though we should have, lol).

Rodgers had extremely bad mechanics coming out of Cal. Which is why he dropped and wasn’t scene as consensus top 10 pick. I still believe that Miami was going to take him in RD2 had he fell there but Green Bay was wise to trade up to snag him late RD1