Are The Dolphins and Tua Further Apart Than People Think? | Page 13 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Are The Dolphins and Tua Further Apart Than People Think?

Obviously, I don’t agree with this.

What you are missing is it isn’t a fair market. Tua is under contract and while he is, you will get zero teams lining up to do anything. In the context of the NFL, value is determined by skill and performance. You can argue those factors, but arguing that value should be based on other teams offers that will never be coming to begin with is absurd

Do you really think the Chargers or the Bengals allowed Herbert or Burrows to entertain or receive offers to determine their value before they were given an extension? You know better than that……
so i disagree:

-first of all i forgot to address your other point about the 5th year option. you seem to position it as a 100% certainty that tua will have a year that will only increase his market value. that is factually incorrect. of course there is a chance he has a year that decreases his market value. he either gets hurt, his performance regresses, or maybe more of the same which is he plays poorly against the better teams, which eventually also degrades his value. it is reasonable to argue about the probabilities of each thing happening. you would probably ascribe a much higher probability to the value enhancing case than i would. fine. but i also warn you that humans tend to be overconfident. i wouldn't go much higher than 60-65% even if I was bullish as you are on tua. a lot can happen. look at what just happened with jalen hurts, daniel jones, herbert, and heck even joe burrow. daniel jones obviously would not get that deal now, burrow probably would, i doubt hurts would, and herbert is a big question mark. there is an old statistics question which is something along the lines of "give me a range for the length of the nile river that you can be 99% confident is correct." to be 99% confident, the answer should be something akin to "between an inch, and the circumfrence of the earth." anyway given where I am on the probabilities, for me the math is make him play out the 5th year option. if tua has the home run year, and proves he is an elite playoff game winning QB that can elevate the team on his shoulders, and we have to pay more for him, i am happy to pay up knowing i have a greater degree of certainty that he is worth it. i put value on that information. i also put value on having the option to pay him alot less if he gets hurt again or does not perform at the level we hope he does. that is my view of the math. i understand you disgaree, which is fine. but again, my point is there are two sides to what can happen to his value this year. it can go up, it can go down. it is decidedly not a one way street.

-when you say value is a function of skill and performance, yes and no. value is a function of other teams view of the players skill and performance. their view may not be the same as your view. these other teams all gave those QBs those deals, because they felt that if they didnt do it, the players would only get more expensive over time, and another team would be willing to hit the price. similar to your view on tua. were they right? lets keep it simple, in the giants case, obviously they were not. nobody is paying their QB for charitable reasons. they are doing it because they believe in the QB, and they think the early deal will be cheaper than waiting the QB out. sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not. the chiefs and bills got it right with allen and mahomes. others clearly made bad bets. what i do know is the view of the rest of the NFL on tua is not nearly as positive as your view. it comes up constantly on finheaven. a national pundit calls tua a "system QB" or "limited and QB #15 in the NFL" and people on finheaven go nuts about it. it is fine to disagree with what the national pundits say. but it is also folly to dismiss what they say. it is data. it is an indicator of how tua is thought of around the NFL. my view is that the rest of the NFL does not put tua in the same category as burrow, mahomes or even herbert. they have him a notch or two below those guys. therefore my belief is there is nothing to force miami's hand to give tua the $55mm deal. if he doesnt get it from us, he wont be getting it from anyone else either. it is like when you buy a house. if it is listed for $100k and you like it, and think it is worth $200k, and the next best offer is $101k, you dont offer the $200k, you offer $102k. and to be honest, we know what miami says about tua, but we dont know what they really think about tua. the good news is, at some point we will find out. i am still of the view something gets done, it will be healthy, but it will not be a top of the market deal
 
Mike Florio seems to think an extension isn’t coming any time soon…if at all.
 
i think you missed my point. the point was it is the dolphins job to sign him for the least amount possible. it is not their job to be charitable. if he can be signed for x, there is no reason to pay him 1.5x. they should not pay him a penny over his market value. his market value is what the best offer would be from any other team if tua were to become a free agent.
You didn't answer his question, irrespective of your point.

Since he isn't on the open market, there is no way to accurately say what is his value. That makes it a judgement.

You prefer a different QB........period. Be honest and drop the charade.
 
You didn't answer his question, irrespective of your point.

Since he isn't on the open market, there is no way to accurately say what is his value. That makes it a judgement.

You prefer a different QB........period. Be honest and drop the charade.
sorry you don't get to do that.
that reply reminds me of a child that loses and argument.
i am rubber you are glue whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!
nowhere in this thread did i say i want another QB. nowhere was that the point in the thread.
i did say i want tua to play out the 5th year option. i also said that i do not think that is going to happen, and that they will give him a deal, but it will start with a 4 instead of a 5, and that they are having a real negotiation and the dolphins are just not rolling over and giving him a top of the market deal.
since you also want tua to play out the 5th year option, clearly articulated in your recent post, that puts you in the same boat as me. obviously the only reason to want him to play out the 5th year option, is you too are not exactly convinced as to what how good he is and what his value is. to be clear asking how good he is and what his value is, is not saying i think he sucks and i want a different QB. i want him here, under the right circumstances. for me, i am not exactly sure what that is yet, which is one more reason i want him to play out the 5th year option, before giving him a massive deal for 5 more years.
but anyway since you agree with me that you want him to play out his 5th year option, i guess you prefer different QB too, and you may as well drop the charade also.
having said all of that, again, none of this was the point of the original post, which was all about whether or not there is a real negotiation going on here, and some pushback from the dolphins, and I think there is, and i think they are smart to do so. their goal should be to retain the player, for the least amount of money possible.
have a nice night
 
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Remember when a few brothers threw a big fat greasy teared tantrums when we signed Chubb to a HORRIBLY MASSIVE team killing contract?

Ah... good times right?

Now Chubb's salary is out of the top ten and the current Edges his own age are signing for 8-10m more per year than Chubb is going to get.

Salary creep.

If we get Tua for less than top 3 rate, we'll be doing fine.

But... rage on brothers! RAGE ON!
 
Remember when a few brothers threw a big fat greasy teared tantrums when we signed Chubb to a HORRIBLY MASSIVE team killing contract?

Ah... good times right?

Now Chubb's salary is out of the top ten and the current Edges his own age are signing for 8-10m more per year than Chubb is going to get.

Salary creep.

If we get Tua for less than top 3 rate, we'll be doing fine.

But... rage on brothers! RAGE ON!
just curious, you didnt directly say it, but do you think the chubb deal, all things considered, has been a good one for the dolphins? you seem to be saying that, based solely on the notion that there are now edge players making more money than he is. that is true. however, the fact that there are edge players making more money than he is, does not make it a good deal for the dolphins. year 1, did nothing, and we didnt win a playoff game. year 2, was pretty good, although some of the optics were better than the actual performance, then got hurt (he is injury prone that was part of the issue with him), and now he will be out/not fully effective for a portion of this year, which also has knock on effects like forcing them to spend another $9mm on shaq barrett on top of what Chubb is already making, so Chubb is literally a $30mm player this year, which makes him more expensive than the guys you said make him look cheap. we are down a first round draft pick, and used a ton of cap space on him as well, which is part of the reason why we had to let some combination of wilkins and hunt go. personally i think the chubb deal sucks and i would rather have the draft pick and the money back, as well as van ginkel who is another guy we had to let go. every year deals go up in value. that is not what makes a player a good deal for a team. it is what they actually produce. over the first 3 years we will have had a nothing, a decent but incomplete year, and now a year where he cannot produce because he will not be on the field for a fair portion of it. seems to me the deal is a big bust
 
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sorry you don't get to do that.
that reply reminds me of a child that loses and argument.
i am rubber you are glue whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!
nowhere in this thread did i say i want another QB. nowhere was that the point in the thread.
i did say i want tua to play out the 5th year option. i also said that i do not think that is going to happen, and that they will give him a deal, but it will start with a 4 instead of a 5, and that they are having a real negotiation and the dolphins are just not rolling over and giving him a top of the market deal.
since you also want tua to play out the 5th year option, clearly articulated in your recent post, that puts you in the same boat as me. obviously the only reason to want him to play out the 5th year option, is you too are not exactly convinced as to what how good he is and what his value is. to be clear asking how good he is and what his value is, is not saying i think he sucks and i want a different QB. i want him here, under the right circumstances. for me, i am not exactly sure what that is yet, which is one more reason i want him to play out the 5th year option, before giving him a massive deal for 5 more years.
but anyway since you agree with me that you want him to play out his 5th year option, i guess you prefer different QB too, and you may as well drop the charade also.
have a nice night
We all know your stated position. You aren't fooling anyone.

I prefer Superman be my QB but since that is not possible, I have to stick to viable options. I don't want a retread FA, and it isn't realistic to do another restart with a high draft pick. If that were the direction we should have made different decisions. That is now spilled milk under the bridge.

It doesn't matter if the advertised number starts with a 4 or 5 per. Reality is guaranteed $, and where is the contract "out" opportunity.


Beyond that, you can't compare the market value of guys that signed 2 years ago to now. By this time next year, that cap will have risen in the neighborhood of 50+ mil per year. That is around a 20% jump. That means salaries as a whole also have to raise the same amount. It is a quickly expanding pie that is required to be split among a finite number of players. That's just economics. WRs will get more. Corners will get more, QBs will get more. Not only that, different perceived positional values will continue to expand like our expanding universe, with distances between the high and low being larger and larger. That is the economics of the league and has to be factored into contracts if teams want to keep good players.
 
just curious, you didnt directly say it, but do you think the chubb deal, all things considered, has been a good one for the dolphins? you seem to be saying that, based solely on the notion that there are now edge players making more money than he is. that is true. however, the fact that there are edge players making more money than he is, does not make it a good deal for the dolphins. year 1, did nothing, and we didnt win a playoff game. year 2, was pretty good, although some of the optics were better than the actual performance, then got hurt (he is injury prone that was part of the issue with him), and now he will be out/not fully effective for a portion of this year, which also has knock on effects like forcing them to spend another $9mm on shaq barrett on top of what Chubb is already making, so Chubb is literally a $30mm player this year, which makes him more expensive than the guys you said make him look cheap. we are down a first round draft pick, and used a ton of cap space on him as well, which is part of the reason why we had to let some combination of wilkins and hunt go. personally i think the chubb deal sucks and i would rather have the draft pick and the money back, as well as van ginkel who is another guy we had to let go. every year deals go up in value. that is not what makes a player a good deal for a team. it is what they actually produce. over the first 3 years we will have had a nothing, a decent but incomplete year, and now a year where he cannot produce because he will not be on the field for a fair portion of it. seems to me the deal is a big bust
I'm always amused by your lengthy posts. You'll ask a question... then bury your lede by typing several paragraphs (not that you use paragraphs) worth of opinions that answer your own question...

Might I suggest asking a question, and THEN responding with the lengthy, filibuster?

But... back to your question.

Yes, the deal for a 26 year old pass rusher was a good one. He was our best Edge last year... and the pressure that he provided set up many of the sacks that Wilkins and Sieler provided.
 
I don't think Tua has earned a big fat contract yet. He's got to play better in the bigger games next season and stay healthy.

Yes he led the league in passing yards but so did Jamies winston a few years ago. Need more from Tua.

Please tell me this is a joke….

First of winston had 30 ints the year he lead if you think that’s the same scenario then it’s hilarious how wrong you are.

Second of all if you watched the games he played well enough to win just about every single one of those “big games”. Could he have played better, sure of course however he played well in just about every game and was let down. Should we cut tyreek for not showing up in big games as well? Here’s all of tyreeks miscues those games which lead to about 4 td’s and atleast 4 fg’s taken off the board in those few games. The crazy thing is there’s even more lost points in those games by other wideouts and a called back td or two due to penalties….

 
just curious, you didnt directly say it, but do you think the chubb deal, all things considered, has been a good one for the dolphins? you seem to be saying that, based solely on the notion that there are now edge players making more money than he is. that is true. however, the fact that there are edge players making more money than he is, does not make it a good deal for the dolphins. year 1, did nothing, and we didnt win a playoff game. year 2, was pretty good, although some of the optics were better than the actual performance, then got hurt (he is injury prone that was part of the issue with him), and now he will be out/not fully effective for a portion of this year, which also has knock on effects like forcing them to spend another $9mm on shaq barrett on top of what Chubb is already making, so Chubb is literally a $30mm player this year, which makes him more expensive than the guys you said make him look cheap. we are down a first round draft pick, and used a ton of cap space on him as well, which is part of the reason why we had to let some combination of wilkins and hunt go. personally i think the chubb deal sucks and i would rather have the draft pick and the money back, as well as van ginkel who is another guy we had to let go. every year deals go up in value. that is not what makes a player a good deal for a team. it is what they actually produce. over the first 3 years we will have had a nothing, a decent but incomplete year, and now a year where he cannot produce because he will not be on the field for a fair portion of it. seems to me the deal is a big bust
Mate I don't agree with a lot of your takes on this issue but free speech and all.

Please take a little more time to break your rants into paragraphs. It's much harder for me to chuckle when I have to spend time figuring out where one sentence ends, and the next begins. 😂
 
post link please? or text of the comments copy and paste?


Doesn’t really say anything like that on Joe rose few days ago just his opinion and he pretty much says that if your not a top 3 qb teams should consider moving on which to me is crazy talk. Said he’s tough to gauge as he’s lead the league in passing and rating but isn’t as talented as the other guys then spews some garbage about other qb’s that could play the position similar at a much cheaper rate which I can think of exactly 0 that are available so not sure where they come up with this
 
I'm always amused by your lengthy posts. You'll ask a question... then bury your lede by typing several paragraphs (not that you use paragraphs) worth of opinions that answer your own question...

Might I suggest asking a question, and THEN responding with the lengthy, filibuster?

But... back to your question.

Yes, the deal for a 26 year old pass rusher was a good one. He was our best Edge last year... and the pressure that he provided set up many of the sacks that Wilkins and Sieler provided.
sold to you! i would take the money and the draft picks back, in a heartbeat.
your conclusionary point about seiler and wilkins is conjecture, obviously the nfl free agent market felt differently about wilkins. as far as chubbs age is concerned, well there are a lot of 21 year olds in the nfl too, but I aint rushing to give up a first rounder for them and pay them $22mm a year.
i value actual production and results. being on the field is a precursor to production.
it is almost a mathematical certainty that at this point the deal is a bust given chubb's last injury.
i always find it interesting that folks like you and certain others feel the necessity to offer some sort of personal commentary, as opposed to just sticking to football and the questions at hand.
no idea why it is so hard to stick to the football and leave the personal stuff and the conspiracy theories out of it
 
just curious, you didnt directly say it, but do you think the chubb deal, all things considered, has been a good one for the dolphins? you seem to be saying that, based solely on the notion that there are now edge players making more money than he is. that is true. however, the fact that there are edge players making more money than he is, does not make it a good deal for the dolphins. year 1, did nothing, and we didnt win a playoff game. year 2, was pretty good, although some of the optics were better than the actual performance, then got hurt (he is injury prone that was part of the issue with him), and now he will be out/not fully effective for a portion of this year, which also has knock on effects like forcing them to spend another $9mm on shaq barrett on top of what Chubb is already making, so Chubb is literally a $30mm player this year, which makes him more expensive than the guys you said make him look cheap. we are down a first round draft pick, and used a ton of cap space on him as well, which is part of the reason why we had to let some combination of wilkins and hunt go. personally i think the chubb deal sucks and i would rather have the draft pick and the money back, as well as van ginkel who is another guy we had to let go. every year deals go up in value. that is not what makes a player a good deal for a team. it is what they actually produce. over the first 3 years we will have had a nothing, a decent but incomplete year, and now a year where he cannot produce because he will not be on the field for a fair portion of it. seems to me the deal is a big bust

It sucks when when people don’t actually watch games.

2022 “did nothing” first of all its tough stepping into a new defense mid season. Second he literally had maybe the biggest play of the season down 3 vs buffalo 3rd and 11 less then 5 to go and he sacked a forced Josh Allen to fumble. Had Miami recovered they tie or win the game. Either way still forced a punt getting Miami a final chance to win the game. Not really his fault offense was less by skylar Thompson. Judging a trades success on if a team won despite a edge rushers having little impact on total games is absolutely wild.

2023 - was on his way to a career year cut short by bad coaching decision.

2024- pure speculation on your part thinking he misses any time or it effects his production. ACL recovery takes 9 months on average which places him ready right at the start. Lately players having been recovering much faster from acl’s.

Hindsight was a 1st a little much? Maybe but at the time offense was firing on all cylinders, Tua looked unstoppable and Miami was in the heat of playoff contention. Who knows what happens if Tua didn’t get hurt but defense was lackluster and needed a spark. Don’t blame Grier for bringing him in at a little high price as for the most part his deals have largely been in Miami’s favor.
 
I’m hoping we are in the 45-50m range for Tua. But hoping and reality sometimes don’t come together. My gf hopes that Ray will come to Bangkok…..😆
 
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