Tunsil Trade Revisited

[AMakados10]

You missed the point of number 3 being most important.

Flores bitched and caused so much noise about tua that the dolphins were desperate to prove he wasn't a bust so they rushed the rebuild and gave up money and assets for hill. Everything they were not doing before. If you like like tua now or don't it doesn't matter.

His first two years had so much noise because Flores was pissed we drafted him, played him when he wasn't healthy, wanted to trade him. This created a toxic environment that when Flores left miami felt the need to get a star like Hill to help Tua succeed. Because the narrative was tua couldn't play and tua confidence was shot.

Trading for a guy like Hill was totally against the plan they had before. Before they were getting capital and money then they switch gears and give up money and picks because Tua was crushed by Flores and the negative media shitstorm. How anybody doesn't see this and realize this affected the plan of rebuilding is crazy.

And I actually think Flores could coach and Tua was decent his first two years. But Flores couldn't get along with anyone, couldn't coach offense, and created a huge tua narrative by letting the media know he wanted watson and not Tua. Tua is our qb.. Tua is our qb tua is our qb. That is all he would say. Then he would let the media and league know he wanted Watson and not tua.

It created a mess when he was gone. Miami felt like they needed to support tua and show he could play so in comes the cheeteh. There goes the picks and and plan to build through the draft. That is how the plan got changed and messed up. They didn't stick to it because they felt they had to show Tua was the guy because Flores ****ed up the entire thing for two years.

Umm Ross tampered for Brady before Tua was even drafted and then again after Flores was fired. Flores is living in your head.

If you’re talking Watson, Flores probably did advocate for him. However, Ross was 1000% on board with that and held a freakin press conference on last day of trade deadline DURING the season on why dumping Tua for Watson didn’t happen. If you think Ross went on national TV on Flores’ behalf and not his own desire, then I don’t know what to tell you.

BTW both things in Flores’ lawsuit on Brady tampering and not losing games happened the season prior to Watson, so Flores was already in Ross’ “doghouse” which they’ve largely said were barely on speaking terms. I’m not sure how you think Flores had a massive influence over Ross.

 

[GatorFin73]

Even if you see tampering as business as usual in the NFL -- and I'm pretty sure most people do -- you still have to blame Stephen Ross for getting himself exposed by involving someone like Brian Flores who evidently wasn't on board with it and made the whole thing public.

Again, if you're planning to tank that's one thing -- the fans generally went along with it -- but why hire a HC who's not on board?

If you're planning to tamper -- and most fans probably don't care how the sausage is made -- that's one thing, but why needlessly involve any party who's going to baulk at the idea and turn you in?

I'm not even clear on why Ross believed his HC needed to be involved in any of the tampering. I don't agree that an employer should assume some employee is willing to go along with nefarious practices even if those practices have precedent and aren't themselves out-and-out evil.

It seems like Ross could just march Tom Brady in the front doors one day and tell Brian Flores, 'you now have a new QB.'

It just makes the Dolphins look so dysfunctional. They can't win. They apparently can't even lose correctly. They can't arrange back-room deals correctly.

We can't compare ourselves to the more stable franchises until we start operating like them--and that begins with finding leadership that actually takes risks. If you believe in a HC then let that HC design the team he wants and let him tell you what QB he wants. If you believe in a certain QB then find a HC who'll go along with that plan. If you want to tamper, make sure everyone's in agreement. Don't expose the illegal activity to those who might turn you in.

It just doesn't seem that hard and yet the Dolphins screw things up by constantly trying to have their cake and eat it to. They can't figure out whether to prioritize the HC, the QB, the agreement of everyone, the priorities of the Owner, the home-grown talent or the premium splash waiting to be made in FA.

I think we're all beginning to acknowledge that maybe it wasn't all the HCs that've come and gone from Tony Sparano, Joe Philbin, Dan Campbell, Adam Gase and Brian Flores who were all 'unprepared to lead' and maybe it was partly the employer as well.

There's one constant in all the turnover and that's Stephen Ross entering the picture in early 2008.

The Dolphins went 1-15 in 2007 in a season where the franchise bottomed out as historically bad. The fact these guys convinced themselves to (purposefully) do it again a decade later kind of says everything, doesn't it?

But we got Ronnie Brown, a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. That’s value

 

[bane]

Umm Ross tampered for Brady before Tua was even drafted and then again after Flores was fired. Flores is living in your head.

If you’re talking Watson, Flores probably did advocate for him. However, Ross was 1000% on board with that and held a freakin press conference on last day of trade deadline DURING the season on why dumping Tua for Watson didn’t happen. If you think Ross went on national TV on Flores’ behalf and not his own desire, then I don’t know what to tell you.

BTW both things in Flores’ lawsuit on Brady tampering and not losing games happened the season prior to Watson, so Flores was already in Ross’ “doghouse” which they’ve largely said were barely on speaking terms. I’m not sure how you think Flores had a massive influence over Ross.

Man. The tampering issues are a totally different thing.

I am saying the rebuild changed and we got a guy like hill because tua was crushed by the media and Flores all because of Flores. He never wanted tua and media knew it. But Grier wanted to prove that Tiua was the answer so he went out and got him a hall of fame wide out. That is why the rebuild changed. That is why we started giving out draft picks for wideouts. To prove tua was the guy and Grier and front office was correct and Flores was wrong. But if Flores didn’t ****ing hate tua and make it out that he sucked so bad and just coached him . Then Grier wouldn’t jumped gun and got hill. He would have stuck to the rebuild plan. Flores shitting on tua caused such a bad look for organization. That they went out and got tua the best wideout in nfl to put him in position to succeed and prove tua was the right pick.

 

[Highzenga]

It's fine if you want to look at things that way but I think most people find that 'woah is me' thinking more of a way to bury your head in the sand than an actual breakdown of why things failed.

For instance, saying that 2022 was all about Tua getting hurt isn't really true. For one, he missed more time in 2021 under Brian Flores with broken ribs and an injured hand than he did with concussions under McDaniel and nobody's crying about how Flores got robbed.

There was more to it than that. There was a collapse that started in SF and played out thru GB wherein we lost 4 straight games with Tua before he left.

We went from being on a roll looking like world-beaters against DET, CHI, CLE and HOU to stalling out against SF and getting totally embarrassed at LA on SNF.

View attachment 168296

We competed well against BUF but Tua's INTs against GB cost us that game and quite frankly he didn't look concussed in the moment. All those reports came later. Nobody was saying anything in the midst of that collapse. It was all after-the-fact the following week. Most people just saw GB defenders sinking into spots to pick off passes they knew were coming. We'd seen good defenses do that before.

The way the BUF, SF and LAC defenses had previously pressured Miami's offense it was clear Miami could be stopped.


2023 was more about injuries, sure, but the fact remains the offense came up small in basically every big game and Tua was playing in all of them. Most of the major injuries didn't happen until later in the season: Hill, Chubb, Phillips, etc.

Points Scored by Miami:

BUF - 20
PHI - 17
KC - 14
BAL - 19
DAL - 22
BUF - 14
KC - 7

Saying you were too hurt to compete just doesn't sit well with people who actually watched the games. It's wasn't injuries that made the offense so inept. It just didn't look well sorted and it didn't have answers a lot of the time. The better the opponent, the more the offense got exposed.

Miami isn't where it needs to be to compete. Ascribing that solely to injuries and thinking we'll be fine in 2024-2025 is going to leave you unhappy when you find out the truth. There's work to be done to improve and get to the level of actually winning Playoff games and making a Super Bowl run.

First off according to your 2022 graph, we lost 4 close games, three of which were 1 score games and the GB game our qb was playing with a concussion the 2nd half. He didn’t all of a sudden start throwing picks when he rarely ever does. Even good teams go on losing streaks. SF lost 3 in a row last year.

Secondly, I watch every game. The only times we were embarrassed were against Buffalo & Baltimore last year. You aren’t going to put up 40 on good teams. We were literally in every game we lost besides those two games.

I believe your thinking is “woah is me we suck” when that is just not the truth. Of course, we need to improve on some things. My point is that we put a lot closer then you may think

 

[lotion]

Houston's a lot closer. Golf clap for Grier he's got everyone looking and talking about trades meanwhile this team hasn't won a playoff game in 20 years.

 

[Mello Yello]

But we got Ronnie Brown, a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. That’s value

Please don't make me stop liking Ronnie Brown, lol.

He was my favorite Dolphin when I started following the team. :)

 

[Dolphins3]

But we got Ronnie Brown, a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. That’s value

I loved Ronnie and 2005 was still right at the tail end of running backs being super important but...yeesh. A Running Back at 2 was not good. I don't care he came from an SEC school. NOT a good value pick. Cadillac went just a few picks later.

 

[Mello Yello]

Man. The tampering issues are a totally different thing.

I am saying the rebuild changed and we got a guy like hill because tua was crushed by the media and Flores all because of Flores. He never wanted tua and media knew it. But Grier wanted to prove that Tiua was the answer so he went out and got him a hall of fame wide out. That is why the rebuild changed. That is why we started giving out draft picks for wideouts. To prove tua was the guy and Grier and front office was correct and Flores was wrong. But if Flores didn’t ****ing hate tua and make it out that he sucked so bad and just coached him . Then Grier wouldn’t jumped gun and got hill. He would have stuck to the rebuild plan. Flores shitting on tua caused such a bad look for organization. That they went out and got tua the best wideout in nfl to put him in position to succeed and prove tua was the right pick.

So you're saying that Chris Grier has made mistakes by trying to prop up Tua's public image through over-investing in WRs and an entire offensive rebuild?

I think that's pretty accurate. I don't know anyone here who doesn't think we've leaned hard into trying to make Tua as productive as he can be. The debate seems to revolve around how far that's going to take us.

 

[GatorFin73]

I loved Ronnie and 2005 was still right at the tail end of running backs being super important but...yeesh. A Running Back at 2 was not good. I don't care he came from an SEC school. NOT a good value pick. Cadillac went just a few picks later.

I think we all liked Ronnie but man was that bad luck, the year we have the #2 pick and that was the best we could do with it.

 

[Mello Yello]

First off according to your 2022 graph, we lost 4 close games, three of which were 1 score games and the GB game our qb was playing with a concussion the 2nd half. He didn’t all of a sudden start throwing picks when he rarely ever does.

Even good teams go on losing streaks. SF lost 3 in a row last year.


Secondly, I watch every game. The only times we were embarrassed were against Buffalo & Baltimore last year. You aren’t going to put up 40 on good teams. We were literally in every game we lost besides those two games.

I believe your thinking is “woah is me we suck” when that is just not the truth. Of course, we need to improve on some things. My point is that we put a lot closer then you may think

All those bolded parts just feel like excuses and fan-speak to me.

I think we've peaked personally. I think the reasons we've hit walls and fallen short the last 2 years are real and it's on McDaniel & Tua to rise above where they've been and reach a level they never have.

Expecting McDaniel to continually re-invent his offense and Tua to suddenly have answers in year-5 he hasn't before is optimistic.

 

[Dolphins3]

We can't compare ourselves to the more stable franchises until we start operating like them--

I am in the Pittsburgh market. Most Steelers talk is about how the team hasn't won a playoff game in seven years. Some folks are calling to fire Tomlin--which won't happen even if it should. The Steelers don't publicly fire coaches. They let them resign on their own or privately nudge them out.

They haven't won a playoff game in 7 years and folks are near-panicked. There is a legitimate sense of urgency. Our streak is almost three times as long and it seems all is roses. I hate the Steelers but, man, I wish our mindset was more like that.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Was the trade worth it? Absolutely.

Should you build your team around the WR position? Absolutely not.

Should you build your team with expensive veterans that you gave up high draft picks for? Absolutely not.

Is there a position you should build your team around?

 

[The Ghost]

Is there a position you should build your team around?

Multiple, aside from the obvious one.

OT, C, Edge, CB, all more important (by a wide margin) than WRs, especially in the post season.

WR is one of the last things I’m adding to rebuilding team.

 

[Mello Yello]

I am in the Pittsburgh market. Most Steelers talk is about how the team hasn't won a playoff game in seven years. Some folks are calling to fire Tomlin--which won't happen even if it should. The Steelers don't publicly fire coaches. They let them resign on their own or privately nudge them out.

They haven't won a playoff game in 7 years and folks are near-panicked. There is a legitimate sense of urgency. Our streak is almost three times as long and it seems all is roses. I hate the Steelers but, man, I wish our mindset was more like that.

Yeah, I can only imagine. I'm in the Carolina market so of course the Dolphins are seen as a rich and well-off franchise by comparison with the lowly Panthers.

I don't think teams like the Steelers have any secrets. Any team that comes along and makes the right choices can become good (quickly) and find it's way to the Super Bowl. This is one big lesson to keep in mind for Dolphins fans who are often so desperate for anything like prominence and national acclaim they allow themselves to wildly over-estimate the value of their own players.

In recent times, we've seen the 49ers and Eagles both do it twice, each time with different HC-QB tandems. The Rams got there twice with different QBs. We've seen the Seahawks and Bengals both rebuild all the way to the Super Bowl in short order. The Lions and Texans have turned themselves around quickly. You just have to hit on the right guys. When you don't have them you just have to keep rolling the dice. Nobody stops being a fan when the team is losing. They stop being a fan when the team fails to play the game--and Miami's too often done that by pushing out rosters that are fundamentally out-of-balance.

Likewise, there's nothing that says the Steelers are going to continue to draft stud defensive players (a list which seems endless throughout their history) or hit on productive QBs (Bradshaw, Roethlisberger, etc.). They don't have any inherent advantage in surveying the landscape of college prospects.

I don't think that desire is lacking in Miami. Ross clearly wants to win. I just don't know that the Dolphins understand how to build a team. They see it as talent acquisition rather than something more organic. Rather than build a team that could bullying the opponent (which the Shula teams of the 70s were good at and which the modern game still requires in Dec-Feb), Miami is typically a hodge-podge roster of flashy talent mixed with stop-gaps all with very little "identity" ever showing itself.

We've also been very bad at the foremost position: QB. You cannot look at Miami and seriously think we should've achieved anything prior to Tua Tagovailoa. Even Tua's game though leaves a lot of questions about his upper-end potential in the Playoffs where conditions and pressure demand more than what scheme can open up on its own.

 

[TFK]

While it's true we haven't won a playoff game since the Tunsil trade, without that trade we don't come close to making the playoffs.